Funakochi and competition

[Killer Miller]

This goes back to Who, Who, Who. The part in the discussions of the paragraph that I felt was not accurately interpreted was not the part on Competition - because competition was always part of the learning process in one fashion or another - even for the Samurai of old days. However, I felt that the word Sport was misused to accurately represent Funikoshi’s direction, belief and philosophies of his art. Now it is possible that due to USA being a sport oriented nation, it could have been misused or misinterpreted for competition being the same as sport? But based on all the teachings I’ve had, and discussions of Nishiyama, and many of similar caliber of JKA instructors/masters voicing similar objectives and philosophies (in person, not in writing), competition from the perspective of the learning process was an important part of development. However, competition for fame, status, etc. was not… The problem became that with increasing dojos and organizations cropping up, and the dilution/misinterpretation of the original philosophies and concepts, how do we grow the teachings, how do we maintain participation in learning the art, and how do we standardize that art to maintain consistency? Competition was a big factor here to maintain participation base – thus the direction of Sport MA was increasing and traditional competition was declining. It was always the long battle of JKA and Funikoshi’s teachings vs. the growing interest for Sport MA. Therefore, I believe there was a great deal of misinterpretation defining the difference of the two as a result.

- Killer -

[Toptomcat]

I'm not interested in the split between the JKA and sport karate, except peripherally. What I'm interested in right now is whether there's anyone out there who can answer my questions about Funakoshi's writings- not the writings of JKA instructors, not the writings of those who interpreted him, not even the writings of his direct students- except perhaps when they claim to directly quote Funakoshi.

Perhaps once my question of primary sources is settled, the answer to it can have bearing on the larger issue of the historical split(s) in karate organizations. But right now, I'm looking for the answer to a very specific question, and you seem determined to stick to generalities, which is rather frustrating.

[Killer Miller]

My only point is that the answer you are looking for is up to interpretation. I'm not sure there are exact facts of what you are looking for? His writings have always been up to interpretation of his meanings and phylosophies... Therefore, generalities and assumptions based on his student's experiences with Funikoshi plays an important role to more accurately interpret Funikoshi's writings. To find someone to give you an answer of fact is not likely to happen - with the exception of maybe Randall Hassell...

Perhaps Wa-No-Michi might shed some light to your question since he seems to be a fairly good historian on this forum.

- Killer -

[Wa-No-Michi]

Sorry guys,

You are the experts here, I can only offer some suggestions. I deffinatley can't answer Toptomcat's specific question as I understand it -

What I want to do is not merely establish the view of Funakoshi generally, as considered across the whole of his life, but to pinpoint when his views on sparring changed- as evidently must have happened at some point during his development as a martial artist.

Could be the blind leading the blind here, but when I read this - the words that jumped out were "assigning of rank"

"The reason that until now there has been no assigning of ranks in karate is that it has not been possible to have shiai (competitive matches) as in judo or kendo. This is because of the devastating power of karate techniques; a strike to a vital point could immediately prove fatal. Likewise, in times past swordsmanship was taught only through kata since a shiai, whether using real swords or wooden swords, was always fought at the risk of one’s life. Subsequently, today’s face masks and wrist guards were developed, and although this brought about a certain amount of degradation in kendo, it allowed it to become that much closer to a sport rather than a martial art. With continuing research it is not unfeasible that as in judo or kendo our karate, too, might incorporate a grading system through the adaptation of protective gear and the banning of attacks to vital points.

In fact, I believe that it is important to move in that direction.

Given that Funakoshi wanted to apply a similar grade ranking system to that of Judo (in which as I understand it, grade advancement was achieved through Kumite bouts or "Shiai"), is it possible that he yielded to the idea as he felt that the belt system was important to the propagation of his art - in order to keep it on the front pages along with Kano's Judo?

Maybe he came round to Shiai as being a means to an end - ie grade advancement, rather than suggesting Karate enter the sporting Arena through the practice of Shiai?

Just a thought.

WNM

[Edit] modified to make more sense

Edited July 8, 2009 by Wa-No-Michi

[bushido_man96]

In our TKD classes, when we test, we have a form of "testing sparring." However, during this sparring, there is never a winner or a loser declared. It is two pitted against each other, showing skills in attack and defense against various opponents. I don't know if this is something like Funakoshi might have been leaning towards, but I don't think it likely.

Also, could he have been thinking of technical competitions like kata competitions? Not exactly an exchange between to combatants, but perhaps something to that effect?

I find this discussion quite intriguing. I don't have much to add to it, but I have enjoyed the exchange so far, and look forward to further comment. I like a chance to learn something new.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Well, maybe Funakoshi was struggling to find away to achieve grade advancement, given that the model he was trying to follow did it solely by a simple concept of ..

"If you beat this fella(s) who is (are) currently X rank (by fighting) you will be advanced to X + rank

Prior to Kano's creation of the belt ranking system, there was no such thing in Traditional Japanese MA. Certificates of competence were awarded by the head of the particular group - but this was more about the ability to "transmit" the art as I understand it -rather than the ability to beat down any given oponent by using it (although logically one should lead to another - I suppose).

As the big man says... keep it coming fellas this is good stuff.

WNM

[Killer Miller]

"If you beat this fella(s) who is (are) currently X rank (by fighting) you will be advanced to X + rank

WNM

Wasn't that rank usually life lol....

- Killer -

[bushido_man96]

Certificates of competence were awarded by the head of the particular group - but this was more about the ability to "transmit" the art as I understand it -rather than the ability to beat down any given oponent by using it (although logically one should lead to another - I suppose).

WNM

There was a term for this, but it escapes me. I looked around, but didn't see it pop up. Do you recall it?

[Toptomcat]

Certificates of competence were awarded by the head of the particular group - but this was more about the ability to "transmit" the art as I understand it -rather than the ability to beat down any given oponent by using it (although logically one should lead to another - I suppose).

WNM

There was a term for this, but it escapes me. I looked around, but didn't see it pop up. Do you recall it?

'Menkyo kaiden', meaning ' "license of total transmission.'

I've come across a disparity in my notes that may go some way to explaining the problem. The passage I quoted is not from Karate-Do Nyumon, which is what was at the top of my page of notes, but Karate Jutsu, which was essentially a second edition of Ryukyu Kenpo Karate- essentially the first thing that Funakoshi ever published on karate, dating back to 1922. So we've got a timeframe for this- this is very early Funakoshi, some time before karate had really begun to catch on in Japan.

[bushido_man96]

Yes, that was it. Thanks!