Karate Schools today...

[bushido_man96]

Perhaps. I say "mean" because I'm really anal about proper form in all aspects of kata. I also prefer teaching techniques in an almost soley application based environment. Which means I try to simulate self defense scenarios to teach application of the techniques as closely as possible. I usually do that with continuous contact sparring. Which students, especially younger kids, don't like that much.

Thanks for clarifying. I figured you meant something more along those lines, and I wouldn't describe it as "mean." I think that would just be good training.

[ninjanurse]

2 cents (of many) :

The standards should be equal but a 9 yr old black belt should never be compared to an adult-you have to compare kids with kids!

Kids are often never given the credit they are due. If you raise your expectations they will rise to meet them.

I am all for a Jr. Black Belt rank-what would be the purpose of not allowing a child to continue to advance their training just because they started their training when they were 6? There is a lot to be learned....time will take care of the rest.

[sensei8]

Patrick wrote:

There is a contradiction here, as well. Many people say it's not about the belt. But, it becomes all about the belt if a kid wears one?

I agree with you here, Patrick. These are actually two very common sayings that float around the MAs: "rank doesn't matter," and "kids shouldn't be black belts." And often these two sentiments come from the same mouths.

At the risk of being looked upon as one who resembles Brian's statement, let me say a few things.

There once WAS a time in my martial arts training that rank MEANT everything to me, but, that time has passed away along, long time ago. Rank has its place and in that, rank is vital. I'm very proud of every accomplishment I've achieved within the martial arts, including rank/title. I've earned them, therefore, I'm very proud of myself, yet, as I've matured in both my personal as well as in my martial arts, I've concluded that KNOWLEDGE is more paramount than rank/title can ever be.

Yes, I've very recently tested for, and passed, my Hachidan in Kobudo, and while I'm proud of this new accomplishment, it adds nothing more to me personally. It is what it is in its proper context, nothing more and nothing less. BTW, I failed my first Hachidan test in Kobudo in 2007.

Rank means nothing to me if knowledge isn't first, and in that, knowledge must be paramount in my martial arts training. Knowledge means everything to me across the board! Rank means nothing to me outside of its context! I possess rank, but, rank doesn't possess me. Therefore, rank doesn't matter to me if knowledge is to be shunned by any practitioner. Achieve the knowledge first that matches the rank, and then surpass the rank with greater and more broader knowlege.

I've never said that kids shouldn't be black belts. I've said that kids under the age of 13 years old shouldn't be black belts. I believe in this philosophy and I stand by it as well. I subscribe to this believe because it's what my Soke and my Dai-Soke believe in! Therefore, I believe in it! More importantly, they, ranking/title requirements and the like, are stated very clearly in the Shindokan By-Laws. Having said that, I will obey the Shindokan By-Laws as set forth without any ambiquity whatsoever!

Under the age of 13 years old; Mudansha's will NOT possess a Junior Yudansha, NOR will a Junior Yudansha achieve any Dan rankings. Under 13 year old, Mudansha's will continue in the Kyu rankings, even Ikkyu, and hold that highest given Kyu rank until the age of 13 years old, and only when that Mudansha meets all testing requirements for the Junior Yudansha. Rank is reserved for adult Yudansha's ONLY! Call it a closed mind philosophy if one would like to, but, it's the philosophy of the Shindokan Hombu, and as the current Kaicho, I will not ammend the Shindokan By-Laws pertaining to ranking/title requirements, now or later.

It's the Shindokan way, and I would just seek everyone's understanding, for these are our ways alone.

In return, I will, from this point forward, honor and respect the By-Laws of every martial arts style concerning how they award belts and rankings for all of their practitioners, including children. I don't have to like, but, I will respect it!

I thank you Patrick, for your post here was key in opening my eyes to some things that I was failing and/or refusing to see.

[The BB of C]

Perhaps. I say "mean" because I'm really anal about proper form in all aspects of kata. I also prefer teaching techniques in an almost soley application based environment. Which means I try to simulate self defense scenarios to teach application of the techniques as closely as possible. I usually do that with continuous contact sparring. Which students, especially younger kids, don't like that much.

Thanks for clarifying. I figured you meant something more along those lines, and I wouldn't describe it as "mean." I think that would just be good training.

That's exactly how my instructor and I feel.

[bushido_man96]

Bob:

You are right about knowledge being paramount to rank. Rank without knowledge, is really nothing. Nor do I think that it is wrong for one to be proud of their accomplishments. One should be proud of what one has earned when one has worked hard for it. I don't disagree with you there at all.

I'll admit that I think the rank, i.e., the belt, did mean more to me earlier on in my career than it does now. Just the process of learning and growing now means more. If rank comes with it, then that's great. I'll still be proud of it, but it probably won't excite me as much as a junior student earning a new belt would be.

Its kind of like when I was a kid, and I couldn't wait for Christmas, because you got to get gifts. Now, I can't wait for Christmas, but instead of the gifts, I'm waiting just to be together with the family. How our perception of things change over time.

I understand that you follow the by-laws of Shindokan, and I respect that, and you, as well. I don't suspect that you'll take any offense from any of the opinions that I have stated, but I want you to understand that it is not my intention to offend, either.

[emjay]

Whatever happened to the good old days when students EARNED what they got? I heard a pretty well known instructor once talk about how he had the father of a young man (who was potentially a new student) ask him about things like belt testing (cost, how often, etc...) for his son. Then the Father asked "How long does it take for the average person to get their black belt?" The instructor responded that the average person doesn't get a black belt. I thought this epitomized the "way-it-aughta-be" situation. Too bad it isn't the dominant thinking in most dojos.

Marc G.

[bushido_man96]

Whatever happened to the good old days when students EARNED what they got? I heard a pretty well known instructor once talk about how he had the father of a young man (who was potentially a new student) ask him about things like belt testing (cost, how often, etc...) for his son. Then the Father asked "How long does it take for the average person to get their black belt?" The instructor responded that the average person doesn't get a black belt. I thought this epitomized the "way-it-aughta-be" situation. Too bad it isn't the dominant thinking in most dojos.

Marc G.

I can see the point that you are making here, and I don't disagree with it. However, I don't think that questions like the one the parent was asking should be avoided, nor should an instructor roll their eyes when these questions are asked. The students, and largely now days, the parents, are the consumers here, and I think it is fair to help answer any questions they have about what they are stepping into.

Usually, as things go along, different understandings of what the studetns are doing come along. This is great, because that is the point where this kind of training begins to become more of a passion, and less of "buying a product." Not everyone understands this in the beginning, so we should have open minds to different points of view.

[emjay]

bushido_man96 said:

However, I don't think that questions like the one the parent was asking should be avoided, nor should an instructor roll their eyes when these questions are asked.

I agree completely that an instructor should not be rude or act superior. I did not mean to leave that impression. And I also agree that the only way to change the image of the "black belt just because you tried hard" is to teach people the difference as we get the chance. But, I get discouraged in general at McDojo image that the martial arts are getting. The idea that if you come to class long enough or pay enough you/your kids WILL be a black belt one day is just disheartening to me. Nopt everyone is up to the challenge, and I think, deffinately not children who haven't developed enough to understand the concepts involved. Like I said, it is never good to be rude or condescending, but the same standards and expectations of a Dan rank can and should be politely imparted just the same.

Marc G.

[bushido_man96]

I didn't think you left the impression of being rude or anything like that, emjay. Your post was good. I just found a spot to expand on, is all. Solid post.

[Truestar]

The instructor responded that the average person doesn't get a black belt. I thought this epitomized the "way-it-aughta-be" situation. Too bad it isn't the dominant thinking in most dojos.

I smiled when I read that, assuming the instructor wasn't being rude when he said that there is absolute truth to it. It's the defining line of a black belt.

A black belt should not be for everyone. It doesn't matter how many classes you made, how hard you tried, or what you've paid. Black belt should be a set standard, and the standards shouldn't be lowered. I think this goes along with age and potential disabilities, whether they be physical or mental. The average person really shouldn't reach black belt. Those who reach that level need to stand out and meet good concrete standards.

I'd rather sit a student at 1st kyu for the rest of their Martial Arts life than give them a black belt knowing they didn't truly meet my black belt standards. From a modern point of view this seems stretched or borderline rude, however speaking as traditionally as I can, I believe it's true.

I recently started a new Martial Arts system. And with this system I got a chance to travel with my instructor to a nearby town to a Shotokan school that is a part of our organization.

They have a mentally handicapped brown belt that I've seen at tournaments before. It's obvious this man has a mental issue. My instructor approached me to inform me of his handicap, he also stated that this man has before lost control and attacked other people. To what extent I didn't indulge in, but he told me to be prepared that if the guy has a mental breakdown to be prepared to witness or participate in taking him down.

So let me ask you. Should this man ever reach black belt? I can tell you his bo staff performance is on par, nothing spectacular but nothing below average. He seems socially adequate, and apparently has had self control issues. I don't believe this man has ever taught anybody an aspect of the Martial Arts, but I may be wrong.

Say this man finds himself in an altercation. What if he breaks down and can't defend himself? What if he truly unleashes his karate but in the process kills someone where that level of force wasn't suited?

So while this man may sit at brown belt forever, I don't think I would give him a black belt. It's not his handicap, but his mental state. I realize what I just said seems completely out of whack. Let's assume he had no mental disability, yet all of the above still pertained. I will still hold this man at brown belt.

It's all about standards. Whether it's Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, whatever it is there should be standards. They are standards that once existed, but in recent decades have died out. Say these standards were brought back to every single school in the US. You would see a hell of a lot less Martial Artists, and black belts. Those who you did see at black belt wouldn't be the average person.

So while all in all at times it seems unfair, or harsh, or inhumane, hopefully I have given my insight on the issue without offending anybody. No where do I want you to think handicapped people can't be Martial Artists, but I do think they need to be set at standards, and when we bring black belt into the picture, especially then, standards shouldn't be lowered. My above story is factual, and just an example.