Karate Schools today...

[kenpokaratekid11]

Does anyone agree with me that many karate schools today are complete crap??? I am a counselour at a camp and some of the kids were talking about how they were almost black-belts and these kids are under the age of ten. I just feel that the term "black-belt" should be held for someone that actually has incredible martial art skills and not just little kids. I just wanted to see if anyone agrees with me.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I think we actually had the what is a black belt discussion not too long ago. It might be pretty easy to find. If not, the basic rundown was, yes, it is strange to see kids running around with black belts, but black belt means different things to different people. Also, I think we all must admit to ourselves that people have to make a living now a days.

It's both a blessing and a curse that children are often the most interested in martial arts. It's a struggle to keep their interest while maintaining the integrity of their martial art. Also, children are people, and not all children are equal when it comes to physical prowess and mental capacity.

I've noticed in Korea that black belt means absolutely nothing. Kids get them all the time. It only requires a few years of commitment. Once you start getting into 3rd dan, 4th dan, and above, that's when they start to really respect you.

[bushido_man96]

My feelings on child black belts has changed over time. It will depend a lot on what the curriculum of the school is. In our school, kids and adults follow the same curriculum, so if both are doing the same, then why should there be a difference in how they are promoted or ranked?

At this point in this discussion, I like to introduce the arts that don't use a ranking system: Wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, Boxing. The practitioners of these styles don't have to worry about this. They show up, they practice, and their skill level is recognized by everyone in the gym, whatever it may be. Limits aren't put on what is taught, just on what they might be able to retain, depending on their skill level.

As far as schools being "crap," that is going to depend on what you expect out of an MA school. Some schools may be curriculum based, and others may be sport focused, and some may be self-defense based. So, each one will likely have different results. And not all students are created equal, either. So, do you base levels off of independent improvement, or compare to other students? Lots of questions to answer, and none of the answers seem simple.

[tallgeese]

You really have to look at it on a school by school basis. There's just too much variation even with styles to make blanket statments.

As to kid bb's, I suprisingly have no problem with it. But, they need to meet standards and it can't be the same weight as an adult rank.

[sensei8]

A long, long, long, lo....you get the point, I was a Jr. Black Belt. I earned it when I was 13 years old and I wasn't allowed to advance in rank until I turned 18 years old. In Shindokan, one must attain the age of 13 years old minimum to earn a JBB.

Having said that, the current kids today are getting black belts AND rank as young as 7 years old; I don't like that for personal and private reasons!

I concur with those here who've said that it must be looked on a school to school basis as well as the school must have a solid syllabus/curriculum. Even then...7 year old black belts...what's next? A 5 year old black belt! Help!

Lots of questions to answer, and none of the answers seem simple.

BINGO!

Does anyone agree with me that many karate schools today are complete crap???

7, 8, 9, 10 years old black belts? Many of todays "Karate" schools are in business for one reason and one reason only...that's right, you've guessed it....MONEY! Some to the tune of 100, 200, 500 thousand annually in "sales!"

What's one to do! Some school are riddled with integrity while others don't even bother with it! Why? You can't deposit integrity in your bank account! I guess I'll stay in the poor house...and love it!

Edited July 3, 2009 by sensei8

[The BB of C]

The person who posted above me is awesome.

I highly disagree with it too.

My instructor disagrees with it too. I'm normally a mean teacher and he always has to ask me to hold back so we don't lose students.

We were talking about it one time and he said "It stinks. I want to teach them in a traditional sense like I was taught [constant drilling, extreme cardio, contact sparring and conditioning exercises] but nobody wants to do any of that stuff anymore. I have to tone it down so I don't lose students."

It sucks.

[Patrick]

There comes a point when you can really take things too seriously. It's good to have respect for the arts, as we all do, but... there are a lot of ways to look at this.

You should ask yourself: do you like to be rewarded when you invest time in something? The answer is likely yes. Rewards, honors, recognition, congratulations, promotions, etc. aren't just something desired by people who reach a certain age, but by people of all ages.

Kids are especially sensitive to this and things need to be fun for them to play and do, also, things need to be fun in childhood - period - or why do it? If you say "well, the martial arts isn't meant to be fun, no belts for them," OK, but understand you can say the same for any activity, from baseball to piano, and understand that you are discouraging generations from a healthy activity because your practice is seemingly too good for them and them holding a belt somehow cheapens your experience.

I don't see a problem with a pack of 5-10 year olds at camp telling each other they are black belts. What's the harm? They're kids, having fun, proud of themselves. Consider that there is a lot worse things that could happen. Consider who is really being hurt by them saying they are a black belt.

When a kid makes an all-star team, does it hurt professional athletes that he calls himself an all-star? When a kid gets a gold medal for some competition, does it hurt Olympians when she calls herself a gold medalist? When a kid puts on a sheriffs badge, does that invalid real law enforcement?

Belts aren't toys, exactly, so don't get me wrong there, but when you are a certain age, the martial arts are a game, a sport, an after school activity. When you are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10... you care about hanging with your pals, being supported and encouraged and having fun. You have juice boxes and cookies after baseball games. Nothing is a life goal for you. You're not "on the journey of your life." You don't care about the "martial arts way."

You don't get a black belt and then think "hey, I can beat everyone up." Maybe they'd joke about it, but let me know when you see a five year old go up to a 6 feet adult male and attempt to beat him up - seriously - with the adult not laughing. If you find a teacher of 5-12 year olds telling his or her students that they should use their martial art to go beat people up, again, let me know... but don't blame the students, blame the teacher.

Like Alex said, you can have different levels of belts. Normal ones for adults, junior belts for certain ages and, hey, why not kid belts for the youngest ones. Belts are one of the coolest things about a martial art to a kid (and to many adults) and kids want to be praised and encouraged. Do you think a pat on the back or a piece of paper is going to excite an 8 year old? No, they want the cool belt.

There is a contradiction here, as well. Many people say it's not about the belt. But, it becomes all about the belt if a kid wears one?

So, again, my point is that, at that age, martial arts are a fun activity and why not? Why shouldn't 5-10 or even 12 year olds be physically active, building self esteem through the arts? Aren't martial arts a good way to stay healthy and build self esteem? Or has that changed?

Is the martial arts too good for that? Is it so much better than music or baseball or ? To tell them, "you can't have a belt," would be like telling an adult they couldn't test for Yellow Belt for 10 years. People can say they are in it for the art and for the belt and I'm sure that's true, but would you really stick around a school like that?

So... if you want to feel this way, that's fine, but you should be comfortable and confident enough in your own abilities and rank, to not be so bothered by kids playing a game as a hobby calling themselves black belts that you feel like they need to be corrected.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks,

Patrick

[sensei8]

There comes a point when you can really take things too seriously. It's good to have respect for the arts, as we all do, but... there are a lot of ways to look at this.

You should ask yourself: do you like to be rewarded when you invest time in something? The answer is likely yes. Rewards, honors, recognition, congratulations, promotions, etc. aren't just something desired by people who reach a certain age, but by people of all ages.

Kids are especially sensitive to this and things need to be fun for them to play and do, also, things need to be fun in childhood - period - or why do it? If you say "well, the martial arts isn't meant to be fun, no belts for them," OK, but understand you can say the same for any activity, from baseball to piano, and understand that you are discouraging generations from a healthy activity because your practice is seemingly too good for them and them holding a belt somehow cheapens your experience.

I don't see a problem with a pack of 5-10 year olds at camp telling each other they are black belts. What's the harm? They're kids, having fun, proud of themselves. Consider that there is a lot worse things that could happen. Consider who is really being hurt by them saying they are a black belt.

When a kid makes an all-star team, does it hurt professional athletes that he calls himself an all-star? When a kid gets a gold medal for some competition, does it hurt Olympians when she calls herself a gold medalist? When a kid puts on a sheriffs badge, does that invalid real law enforcement?

Belts aren't toys, exactly, so don't get me wrong there, but when you are a certain age, the martial arts are a game, a sport, an after school activity. When you are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10... you care about hanging with your pals, being supported and encouraged and having fun. You have juice boxes and cookies after baseball games. Nothing is a life goal for you. You're not "on the journey of your life." You don't care about the "martial arts way."

You don't get a black belt and then think "hey, I can beat everyone up." Maybe they'd joke about it, but let me know when you see a five year old go up to a 6 feet adult male and attempt to beat him up - seriously - with the adult not laughing. If you find a teacher of 5-12 year olds telling his or her students that they should use their martial art to go beat people up, again, let me know... but don't blame the students, blame the teacher.

Like Alex said, you can have different levels of belts. Normal ones for adults, junior belts for certain ages and, hey, why not kid belts for the youngest ones. Belts are one of the coolest things about a martial art to a kid (and to many adults) and kids want to be praised and encouraged. Do you think a pat on the back or a piece of paper is going to excite an 8 year old? No, they want the cool belt.

There is a contradiction here, as well. Many people say it's not about the belt. But, it becomes all about the belt if a kid wears one?

So, again, my point is that, at that age, martial arts are a fun activity and why not? Why shouldn't 5-10 or even 12 year olds be physically active, building self esteem through the arts? Aren't martial arts a good way to stay healthy and build self esteem? Or has that changed?

Is the martial arts too good for that? Is it so much better than music or baseball or ? To tell them, "you can't have a belt," would be like telling an adult they couldn't test for Yellow Belt for 10 years. People can say they are in it for the art and for the belt and I'm sure that's true, but would you really stick around a school like that?

So... if you want to feel this way, that's fine, but you should be comfortable and confident enough in your own abilities and rank, to not be so bothered by kids playing a game as a hobby calling themselves black belts that you feel like they need to be corrected.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks,

Patrick

At this moment I'd just like to say that Patrick makes many solid points!

Thanks Patrick, you've given me something to think about...carefully and respectfully! Will I change my mind after weighing in everything? Probably...No!

[bushido_man96]

There is a contradiction here, as well. Many people say it's not about the belt. But, it becomes all about the belt if a kid wears one?

I agree with you here, Patrick. These are actually two very common sayings that float around the MAs: "rank doesn't matter," and "kids shouldn't be black belts." And often these two sentiments come from the same mouths.

I'm normally a mean teacher and he always has to ask me to hold back so we don't lose students.

I think that by saying you are a "mean" teacher, you likely are saying that you are a strict teacher. But if you say "mean," I conjure up lots of different possibilites that a teacher could be, ranging from cruel activities to outright illegal ones. I don't think this is the case with you, but the word "mean" does lend itself to various connotations.

With that said, does one have to be "mean" or, for perhaps a term more conducive to the subject at hand, "old school" to be a good teacher? I don't think so. I do think that adherence to a nostalgia (percieved or otherwise) in the passing on of Martial knowledge is a major thing in MA learning and instruction. But, I don't think it is one that is necessary. Everyone has different approaches. New methods of training can be just as effective as older training methods, as can new attitudes and approaches.

[The BB of C]

Perhaps. I say "mean" because I'm really anal about proper form in all aspects of kata. I also prefer teaching techniques in an almost soley application based environment. Which means I try to simulate self defense scenarios to teach application of the techniques as closely as possible. I usually do that with continuous contact sparring. Which students, especially younger kids, don't like that much.