Future Events Appearing Real = FEAR!

[sensei8]

Fear doesn't exist in the Dojo/Dojang! Or does it?

Preception is reality to each person!

Sensei's are respected by thier students but I think that the students are fearful of their instructors. How they're precieved by their students goes along way. How the instructor barks, carries themselves, and the awe struckness of what the instructor can do...to them if the instructor wanted to.

Students shouldn't fear their instructors. Why? BECAUSE THE STUDENT IS THE CUSTOMER! Therefore, instructors MUST respect their students as just that...students that are their CUSTOMERS!

[isshinryu5toforever]

I think you're exactly right, students shouldn't fear their instructor. Too many people confuse fear for respect. Instructors need to walk a fine line between the two.

[bushido_man96]

I agree as well. I think it is important that respect recipricates. There is a difference between earning and demanding respect, and earning it is far better, in the long run.

[blackbeltbabe348]

I totally agree what you guys are saying. Instructors shouldn't have to put the fear of god in the students in order for them to respect them and perform in class. It really goes into how an instructor motivates their students whether it be (I hate to bring a old saying into it) with a carrot or a stick. The stick will work, but the carrot will make much happier students. I believe it shouldn't even be a big issue for the instructor to gain the students trust and respect. Instructors are leaders. As long as the students feel you truely care about them and you set a positive example then it's only natural for them to make you their "superhero" so to speak. Instructors should inspire their students, not scare them.[/b][/color]

[tonydee]

Fear doesn't exist in the Dojo/Dojang! Or does it?

Preception is reality to each person!

Sensei's are respected by their students but I think that the students are fearful of their instructors. How they're perceived by their students goes along way. How the instructor barks, carries themselves, and the awe struckness of what the instructor can do...to them if the instructor wanted to.

Students shouldn't fear their instructors. Why? BECAUSE THE STUDENT IS THE CUSTOMER! Therefore, instructors MUST respect their students as just that...students that are their CUSTOMERS!

Personally, I found one or two of my old instructors pretty scary, but that doesn't mean they weren't great instructors or were uncaring or vicious in any way... it was more like feeding the tiger at the zoo... you know it won't hurt you from the other side of the bars, but it's just a really obviously dangerous thing and the sheer physicality and competence radiated is profound and initially unfamiliar.

But, the real reason I responded was the "instructors MUST respect students because they're CUSTOMERS" bit. I don't buy into that at all, and make no compromises. I think if an instructor treats students that way, other students that don't abuse that financial consideration will lose respect for the instructor. But, I've never needed martial arts as my primary income source, and I think the public's understanding of deeper-than-financial service providers and mutual obligations is healthier in some countries/cultures than others, so each to their own reality.

Cheers,

Tony

[sensei8]

But, the real reason I responded was the "instructors MUST respect students because they're CUSTOMERS" bit. I don't buy into that at all, and make no compromises. I think if an instructor treats students that way, other students that don't abuse that financial consideration will lose respect for the instructor. But, I've never needed martial arts as my primary income source, and I think the public's understanding of deeper-than-financial service providers and mutual obligations is healthier in some countries/cultures than others, so each to their own reality.

I treat my students as just that...students first...customers second. "Customers" is the label that my students wear when they're off the Dojo floor. BUT, in that, I don't succumb to the customer, because a customers ISN'T always right. I run the Dojo, both floors! I've dismissed many a students/customers who thought that they were going to dictate to me just because they're the customer. That don't fly with me, then and now! I will respect my customer as long as they don't try to use the "customer" card on me.

I treat my students like customers because that's just what they are when their no longer on the Dojo floor, but, they're on the sales floor. It's called...customer service and I pride myself in my customer service. When the customer starts trying to "teach" me about the martial arts while on the sales floor, that's where it stops. They're a time for things in their respective place and I adhere to it.

When the Dojo floor is concerned...there are NO customers...only students!

I remember a time when I was 15 years old and my mom stepped onto the Dojo floor to speak to my Dai-Soke without his permission because she wanted to discuss something immediately. My Dai-Soke yelled to my mom..."Get off the Dojo floor NOW!" She refused and this made my Dai-Soke red. He yelled..."Yame!" Walked up to her, pointed to the door and told her to get off the Dojo floor NOW! She still refused, my Dai-Soke picked her up by her biceps and walked her to the waiting area and placed her into a chair. He then told my mom to be quiet and when class in over, he will be more than happy to sit down with her to discuss the matter, but, until then, "Please be quiet and don't ever come onto the Dojo floor...EVER!" She sat there, fuming, but she sat there.

My moms mentality UNTIL that moment was of the customer is always right, but, the customer might be right, but, my Dai-Soke wasn't going to be told anything by any customer in his Dojo; customer or not!

Student...Customer...no matter how one looks at the duality of either...I still respect them both accordingly!

[tonydee]

I'm still trying to get to the heart of your thoughts on this matter. I think there's some overlap with mine, such that:

- an instructor has a responsibility to his or her students because that student is investing time, effort, trust, AND money - and probably taking some risk to their short-term physical safety - in their training with the instructor... (the CUSTOMER bit just emphasised money over the rest, which worried me)

- an instructor can't necessarily stop a new student being a bit scared of them, or other people there, but the instructor should ensure the student can quickly realise they're able to train their safely (enough) if they do their very best to follow instructions and fit in harmoniously, respecting that the instructor is there to teach them and others martial arts, and making a sincere effort to receive that transmission

Should an instructor be a bit scary sometimes? If it's needed: yes. If a student isn't paying enough attention, putting themselves, or - worse - others at risk of injury, then an angry, scary instructor might be the right "face" to show. From the philosophical perspective I take (Buddhist), we're responsible for attempting to optimise outcomes, and need to make ourselves into whatever is needed to keep moving the other person (student) in the right direction, towards surpassing us as martial artists and people, inside and outside the dojang. Very rarely, momentarily, that's not what's normally considered "nice", or the person we generally like other people to see us as. Sometimes shock, stress, threat, short-term classification as failure is a necessary catalyst to larger progress, getting them both tougher and more compassionate, less fearful and less needy, more energetic and responsible. Requires a lot of wisdom to strike the right balances.

Cheers,

Tony

[still kicking]

I remember a time when I was 15 years old and my mom stepped onto the Dojo floor to speak to my Dai-Soke without his permission because she wanted to discuss something immediately. My Dai-Soke yelled to my mom..."Get off the Dojo floor NOW!" She refused and this made my Dai-Soke red. He yelled..."Yame!" Walked up to her, pointed to the door and told her to get off the Dojo floor NOW! She still refused, my Dai-Soke picked her up by her biceps and walked her to the waiting area and placed her into a chair. He then told my mom to be quiet and when class in over, he will be more than happy to sit down with her to discuss the matter, but, until then, "Please be quiet and don't ever come onto the Dojo floor...EVER!" She sat there, fuming, but she sat there.

Sensei8, you have the best stories -- though so far nothing has topped the one where you tried on your Dai-Soke's belt!

[sensei8]

Requires a lot of wisdom to strike the right balances.

Whew...that's a solid statement!

One's a 'student' and the other is a 'customer', and for me, which "floor" we're standing on at the time dictates whom they are. I'm Sensei, no matter what floor I'm standing on.