The semantics of Martial Arts

[tonydee]

I don't think it's practical to expect an average journalist to dig down to the truth of the origins of taekwondo, or understand how significant the changes have been since it forked from karate.

It is interesting to hear that karate is used generically in the USA, and if that's true the mistake is understandable.

It's also true that different schools change at different paces - my TKD style has moved closer to traditional karate the longer I've trained, to the point where I dislike using the term TKD as it's less widely communicative of what I do, but feel I can't use karate as it's presumptuous and unfair to the karate establishment. I should join an actual karate school, learn some traditional kata, and get over the whole thing, but my habits are so ingrained and I'm stubborn, so it's hard to "empty the cup" for a closely-related style, and I'd only do it if I believed it superior to what I already know.

Given that the taekwondo has an ancient connection with Chinese arts, hundreds of years of Okinawan practice, 30-odd in Japan, then for my branch - 10 or 20 in Korea, then 20 in Australia before I started learning, all the significant people who directly taught me taekwondo were not Korean, and I've lived and taught in London and Japan for 10 years, it's hard to see why the Korean aspect should be singled out as characterising the art. I personally believe stripping the Okinawan kata and removing the hip mechanics were the biggest changes Korea contributed, and both very negative ones, although I think there are numerous more subtle changes that were beneficial. I also feel very annoyed that so many taekwondo schools lie about the origins of the art... I've put in my years of blindly defending the "taekwondo is not karate" line, believing what I'd been told about connections to hwarangdo and taekkyon.

It's also worth pointing out that - as nominally Korean stylists - we're complaining about TKD being mistermed Karate on "karateforums.com" ;-P.

To answer the question: I used to be bothered about semantics, but I'm not any more. I think the implications of the phrase "martial arts" is more pervasive and important in shaping public opinion about what we do, and our own prejudices about what we ought to be doing, than the taekwondo vs karate distinction, and I've gotten over that too.

Regards,

Tony

[Patrick]

I think this is an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, isshinryu5toforever and thanks to everyone who has replied so far.

It's also worth pointing out that - as nominally Korean stylists - we're complaining about TKD being mistermed Karate on "karateforums.com" ;-P.

hehe. Well, if you'd like, you can visit the site by typing in http://www.martialartsforums.com, too.

Patrick

[tonydee]

Well, if you'd like, you can visit the site by typing in http://www.martialartsforums.com, too.

Patrick

That I didn't know!

Cheers, Tony

[Patrick]

[bushido_man96]

Have I ever told you Brian...you're my hero! Thanks for untying my tongue and saying what I wanted to say...but more clearer.

Hehe, thanks Bob. Sometimes, I think I get too tongue tied, as well.

[JohnASE]

I don't blame TKD or TSD schools for calling themselves karate. Strictly speaking, they're not karate, but what's the difference beside country of origin. There are things that make them different from any Japanese karate, but there are vast differences between Japanese karate styles as well, especially if you include Okinawan styles. If a dojang wants to market itself as a karate school, I don't mind... much.

I understand referring to Tae Kwon Do as a sport martial art (my apologies to those who are familiar with the non-sport content of TKD [like joint locks] that is often not emphasized), or else it wouldn't (couldn't?) have been accepted by the Olympics, but Tang Soo Do, and my art, Soo Bahk Do, specifically separate themselves from Tae Kwon Do. As martial arts, how are they not karate, since there's been such a heavy Japanese influence on them? Even the Pinan/Heian, or Pyung Ahn to the Soo Bahk Do-ist, series is incorporated in them. I do see that you mentioned country of origin, John, but how are they not another of the many facets of "empty hand" (originally "China hand")?

The reason it bothers me a little is that I feel it's inaccurate, and inaccuracy bothers me. Like the OP, I think the use of a Japanese word suggests that it's a Japanese art. I accept that the general public doesn't care whether it's Shotokan or TKD, but if someone were to ask a TKD instructor which martial art they teach, I doubt they would answer karate, even if that's what is says in their front window. And the ones that would, what would they say if a Korean asked them, or another martial artist? I think it all depends on context.

Personally, I know I can be a little anal about using correct terms, so I make an effort to be flexible. As a car guy, it bothers me when people refer to Mustangs as "sports cars" even though it's no where near the classic definition of a sports car. People often use "centrifugal force" when they actually mean "centripetal force." Most people don't know or care what the distinction is, and most people understand the intended meaning.

As I see it, language changes over time, and if enough people want a word to mean something other than it used to, then that's what the new definition should be. Isn't that how even works for Webster's Dictionary?

[sensei8]

I don't blame TKD or TSD schools for calling themselves karate. Strictly speaking, they're not karate, but what's the difference beside country of origin. There are things that make them different from any Japanese karate, but there are vast differences between Japanese karate styles as well, especially if you include Okinawan styles. If a dojang wants to market itself as a karate school, I don't mind... much.

I understand referring to Tae Kwon Do as a sport martial art (my apologies to those who are familiar with the non-sport content of TKD [like joint locks] that is often not emphasized), or else it wouldn't (couldn't?) have been accepted by the Olympics, but Tang Soo Do, and my art, Soo Bahk Do, specifically separate themselves from Tae Kwon Do. As martial arts, how are they not karate, since there's been such a heavy Japanese influence on them? Even the Pinan/Heian, or Pyung Ahn to the Soo Bahk Do-ist, series is incorporated in them. I do see that you mentioned country of origin, John, but how are they not another of the many facets of "empty hand" (originally "China hand")?

The reason it bothers me a little is that I feel it's inaccurate, and inaccuracy bothers me. Like the OP, I think the use of a Japanese word suggests that it's a Japanese art. I accept that the general public doesn't care whether it's Shotokan or TKD, but if someone were to ask a TKD instructor which martial art they teach, I doubt they would answer karate, even if that's what is says in their front window. And the ones that would, what would they say if a Korean asked them, or another martial artist? I think it all depends on context.

Personally, I know I can be a little anal about using correct terms, so I make an effort to be flexible. As a car guy, it bothers me when people refer to Mustangs as "sports cars" even though it's no where near the classic definition of a sports car. People often use "centrifugal force" when they actually mean "centripetal force." Most people don't know or care what the distinction is, and most people understand the intended meaning.

As I see it, language changes over time, and if enough people want a word to mean something other than it used to, then that's what the new definition should be. Isn't that how even works for Webster's Dictionary?

I get your meaning as well as your points! Nice post!

I don't care if it's an orange or a tangerine; I just want to eat the darn thing because I'm hungry! Same thing, I don't care if it's called Shotokan or Shindokan; I just want to learn the darn thing because I'm hungry for its knowledge.

Both feed me, therefore, both nourish me!

[gzk]

I don't mind people generalising when they don't know specifics, ie: referring to karate, freestyle wrestling, BJJ, etc. as "martial arts", because they all are. What I don't like is when they're flat-out wrong in ways that should be obvious to them. So for example, if the average person saw a TKD-er not wearing a uniform practicing side kicks, I wouldn't be annoyed if they siad "oh, he does karate", becuase I don't expect most people to be able to tell the difference between a karateka doing a side kick and a TKDer doing a side kick (is there even a difference? Honest question..).

On the other hand, I've had people see my gi and assume I do karate, despite the fact that it says "BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU" very prominently in multiple places, and I really think that most people should be able to tell the difference between standup fighting and ground grappling, even if all practitioners concerned wear gis.

Some people even believe "martial arts" to be a synonym for "karate". The local paper once did a story on someone who trained where I do and referred to "Brazilian jui-jitsu" as "a style of karate that includes wrestling". Hmm, better go practice my mawashi-geri for the BJJ tournament!

[sensei8]

I don't mind people generalising when they don't know specifics, ie: referring to karate, freestyle wrestling, BJJ, etc. as "martial arts", because they all are. What I don't like is when they're flat-out wrong in ways that should be obvious to them. So for example, if the average person saw a TKD-er not wearing a uniform practicing side kicks, I wouldn't be annoyed if they siad "oh, he does karate", becuase I don't expect most people to be able to tell the difference between a karateka doing a side kick and a TKDer doing a side kick (is there even a difference? Honest question..).

[i'll be brought to the wood shed on this one, watch!] At its core, no, a side kick is just a side kick.

On the other hand, I've had people see my gi and assume I do karate, despite the fact that it says "BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU" very prominently in multiple places, and I really think that most people should be able to tell the difference between standup fighting and ground grappling, even if all practitioners concerned wear gis.

Some people even believe "martial arts" to be a synonym for "karate". The local paper once did a story on someone who trained where I do and referred to "Brazilian jui-jitsu" as "a style of karate that includes wrestling". Hmm, better go practice my mawashi-geri for the BJJ tournament!

I hear what you're saying and I agree! Again, they're "laymen" and "laymen" of the martial arts say the darnest cutest irratating things, therefore, we just have to forgive them for they know not what they do.

[bushido_man96]

Yes, it can be an irritating thing to see. But for the average journalist, they attempt to use terminology to generate visualizations. Some attempts are more futile than others, and none of them will likely seem excusable to us.

I guess in the end, we just have to sort of chuckle and move on with it.