Katas vary from school to school?

[bushido_man96]

I wonder whether there is a Chinese whispers effect as well. I.e. Sensei subconsciously makes a slight change to kata because it suits his own approach (e.g. changes a stance in part of the kata from, say, seishan to shiko dachi) and then passes that on to his students. They then pass it on in turn, together with any subtle changes they make.

I have found such differences in the way kata are taught at the dojo I attend as compared with books/ videos by other sensei.

I also think that at times the reverse happens, when a Sensei may have made a change to something, be it subtle or not, and then passes it on to the students. Then, you get the students that become Senseis that then claim that if their Sensei did it that way, then it should never be done any other way, and yada yada yada...

[sensei8]

I wonder whether there is a Chinese whispers effect as well. I.e. Sensei subconsciously makes a slight change to kata because it suits his own approach (e.g. changes a stance in part of the kata from, say, seishan to shiko dachi) and then passes that on to his students. They then pass it on in turn, together with any subtle changes they make.

I have found such differences in the way kata are taught at the dojo I attend as compared with books/ videos by other sensei.

I also think that at times the reverse happens, when a Sensei may have made a change to something, be it subtle or not, and then passes it on to the students. Then, you get the students that become Senseis that then claim that if their Sensei did it that way, then it should never be done any other way, and yada yada yada...

Hopefully I've not done that. While some of my Dai-Soke has rubbed off onto me, a majority of it is etched in stone because I've evolved on my own, therefore, I'm complete in MY totality, not the totality of my Sensei/Dai-Soke/Soke. The things I've not changed are because I AGREE with my Soke and my Dai-Soke in their teachings, but, it's me who agrees, and if I don't agree in their teachings, then I won't do it and they knew and know of this to be true of me.

[Wa-No-Michi]

What does Shu-Ha-Ri mean?

Simply stated, it means "hold, break, leave" which are the levels of learning of a person.

Shu, the practitioner tries to obey the rules.

Ha, the practitioner tries to break free from the old rules.

Ri, the practitioner tries to leave/depart from the rules.

That's as basic as I can put it.

Strictly speaking, the term is used to describe the developmental progression and understanding of a (specific) art form - through the use of kata.

The word "Kata" should not be singularly viewed along the lines of the solo performance style "Karate" kata (ie Kanku-dai etc) but rather, as a set or form used as teaching tool to impart the core principles of the art. Most Kenjutsu schools for example have both solo and paired kata, as do Jujutsu schools. Even outside MA, the tea ceremony is a Kata.

Kata with a capital "K" is core to the pedagogy of many tradition Japanese art forms, and very hard for us here in the west to understand (beyond the obvious performance / shape and form) as to how it really works.

"Shu-ha-ri" describes the stages of this "Kata" and so therefore the art form in itself.

Literally, "shu-ha-ri" means to embrace the Kata, to diverge from the Kata, and to discard the kata.

In "Shu" students will follow diligently the footsteps of their instructor and fully embrace the Kata/art form faithfully as it is represented to him by his instructor - without question.

"Ha" –is only achieved after many years in "Shu" when student will enter into the "ha" or divergence stage. This is where individual creative expression will start to develop but, the core principles of the art and correct form remain sacrosanct.

"Ri" to discard – To arrive at “Ri” a student must have fully internalised the “shu” and “ha” stages of kata training. Ultimately this means that one has trained in the art to the extent that the Kata itself ceases to exist (in its external form). The core principles found/practiced within, become instinctive, to the point where an exponent can use his skills spontaneously and automatically in free thinking way as opposed to “set” into a form.

WNM

[sensei8]

What does Shu-Ha-Ri mean?

Simply stated, it means "hold, break, leave" which are the levels of learning of a person.

Shu, the practitioner tries to obey the rules.

Ha, the practitioner tries to break free from the old rules.

Ri, the practitioner tries to leave/depart from the rules.

That's as basic as I can put it.

Strictly speaking, the term is used to describe the developmental progression and understanding of a (specific) art form - through the use of kata.

The word "Kata" should not be singularly viewed along the lines of the solo performance style "Karate" kata (ie Kanku-dai etc) but rather, as a set or form used as teaching tool to impart the core principles of the art. Most Kenjutsu schools for example have both solo and paired kata, as do Jujutsu schools. Even outside MA, the tea ceremony is a Kata.

Kata with a capital "K" is core to the pedagogy of many tradition Japanese art forms, and very hard for us here in the west to understand (beyond the obvious performance / shape and form) as to how it really works.

"Shu-ha-ri" describes the stages of this "Kata" and so therefore the art form in itself.

Literally, "shu-ha-ri" means to embrace the Kata, to diverge from the Kata, and to discard the kata.

In "Shu" students will follow diligently the footsteps of their instructor and fully embrace the Kata/art form faithfully as it is represented to him by his instructor - without question.

"Ha" –is only achieved after many years in "Shu" when student will enter into the "ha" or divergence stage. This is where individual creative expression will start to develop but, the core principles of the art and correct form remain sacrosanct.

"Ri" to discard – To arrive at “Ri” a student must have fully internalised the “shu” and “ha” stages of kata training. Ultimately this means that one has trained in the art to the extent that the Kata itself ceases to exist (in its external form). The core principles found/practiced within, become instinctive, to the point where an exponent can use his skills spontaneously and automatically in free thinking way as opposed to “set” into a form.

WNM

I agree with you. I wasn't doing a thesis, therefore, I was just stating it in the most simple and basic terms as I could in order to answer furry_Homeboy's question.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi Sensei8,

I wasn't being facetious, just trying to point out why it related specifically to kata.

The op asked why katas vary from school to school and the existence of "Shu-ha-ri" has to be one of the main reasons.

Putting aside individual traits that will naturally make one instructor perform the Kata differently to another (like size and shape) - if one instructor is further into the journey of "Shu-ha-ri" than another, he will see certain things from a different perspective. This will undoubtedly have an effect on how they teach the kata.

So katas not only vary between schools they will vary over time with the same instructor at the same school. I for one am teaching katas differently than I did say 10 years ago.

That's all, didn't mean to offend

WNM

[quinteros1963]

From what I understand instructors of old would teach kata to students based upon what he thought best fit the individual's style. So while he taught one kata to me he may feel that you are better suited for another, even though we started at the same time. We should also remember that in the early days there was no such a thing as a colored belt, so whose to say that there are really any "brown belt or yellow belt" kata.

[Chuck]

I can understand your Sensei's theory behind teaching you Naihanchi (Tekki Shodan for Shotokan) It was the first kata taught to Funakoshi Sensei, the father of "modern karate" He spent 9 years on the kata perfecting it and getting the bunkai on it correct too. It is a simple but extreme kata to learn it looks easy but it is so hard to get right. the feet, the arms the twisting etc.

A good example of this is in James Bond "Casino Royale" James bond uses Naihanchi (Tekki) to fight the guy on the crane.

Good Luck on your journey

Remember you have a 1:10,000 of becoming a Shodan (blackbelt) so I hope the you are the 1.

Osu!!!!

Agreed! Tekki Shodan is a very hard kata to get down. Just staying in a level Kiba Dachi (horse stance) the whole time was an effort in itself.

[whess]

naihanchi was the 3rd kata i was tough