Katas vary from school to school?

[mudansha]

Throughout time, as masters break away, they add their own style to the art. After several splits over 50-100 years, the styles that emerge are completely different.

This is the variance found in all martial arts. The most basic of this variance is found in the subtle differences that each karateka puts into his kata. After all, none of us are robots.

This is true, and I have noticed differences like this in my TKD practice. In reading the encyclopedia and books by Cho, I notice differences between the forms they did, and the ones that I do now, even though they are the "same" forms.

Yeah... I guess what it comes down to is if one goes back far enough, it all gets traced back to China.

The originator of TKD (General Choi) was actually a nidan in Shotokan.

It seems that once someone has practiced karate long enough... he breaks off and starts his own "style"..

[Wa-No-Michi]

As I said,

...two instructors are unlikely to teach the same kata identically, as they will be at different developmental stages (and levels of understanding) themselves.

Karate clubs are organic, as are instructors, students and styles - they are always growing and developing....this is the shu-ha-ri of things. So it stands to reason that kata is going to be taught differently in this respect also.

Then....

I would say that each kata is different based on the person. Due to body mechanics, each karateka will have certain strengths and weaknesses. As such, certain facets of the kata are emphasized in certain people and not in others.

Many times, the big differences will be in which organization the dojo is affiliated with. Our dojo was SKIF for many years so as such, we emphasize the teachings of Kanazawa sensei. Some of our students were JKA and apparently, when Kanazawa left JKA, he changed a few things. A couple of the katas have slight differences, and the Kihon Ippon, Jiyu ippon, and kihon katas of SKIF are completely different than JKA.

Even Funakoshi's students broke off in two different areas. The Style Shotokai share the same katas as shotokan but they are performed completely different. Throughout time, as masters break away, they add their own style to the art. After several splits over 50-100 years, the styles that emerge are completely different.

This is the variance found in all martial arts. The most basic of this variance is found in the subtle differences that each karateka puts into his kata. After all, none of us are robots.

Yeah... I guess what it comes down to is if one goes back far enough, it all gets traced back to China.

The originator of TKD (General Choi) was actually a nidan in Shotokan.

It seems that once someone has practiced karate long enough... he breaks off and starts his own "style"..

All = "Shu-Ha-Ri"

A "thankfully" unavoidable byproduct of studying a martial art - both it... and the student studying it will, and should continue to evolve.

No point otherwise.

WNM

[sensei8]

All = "Shu-Ha-Ri"

A "thankfully" unavoidable byproduct of studying a martial art - both it... and the student studying it will, and should continue to evolve.

No point otherwise.

Including Kata, which I believe is the focus of this thread! Kata isn't and shouldn't be written in stone, but, it is for me because I'm stubborn and I will evolve in the Bunkai/Oyo Bunkai of the Kata, not change the Kata.

[joesteph]

Kata isn't and shouldn't be written in stone, but, it is for me because I'm stubborn and I will evolve in the Bunkai/Oyo Bunkai of the Kata, not change the Kata.

I don't think of you as "stubborn," Bob, but more "old school." (I shouldn't have said that. Now we'll wind up with a new thread on old school. ) I'm aware of your higher ranking and recent promotion in Shindokan, and that you're very likely to know a great deal of bunkai within the kata of your art.

So, maybe tangental to the thread, maybe not, what do you think of an organization adding a kata and expecting dan members and schools affiliated with the organization not only to know the performance of the kata but, as is expected, the bunkai within?

[Wa-No-Michi]

But to study kata correctly, you have to understand it (on a conceptual level).

Kata doesn't work if you are not taught to think outside of it.

As Otsuka sensei writes - "Enter into Kata then withdraw from Kata"... to produce forms with no limits - to rely on trained instinct rather than "habit"

One should not get "stuck" in them!!

The Japanese have an expression "Igata" - which literally speaking refers to a "mould" from which you would re-produce 1000's of identical replica pots.

It is important to avoid "Igata" when training in Karate kata.

This is why you need a good sensei to explain how Kata based karate ticks, in order to get the most out of it (as opposed to an "online tutorial" (by the "bunkai master" and the likes)).

Another important fact to take into consideration is that we are all built differently - particularly here in the west, which is not so much the case in Asia where bodies are far more standardised (or at least used to be).

WNM

[sensei8]

So, maybe tangental to the thread, maybe not, what do you think of an organization adding a kata and expecting dan members and schools affiliated with the organization not only to know the performance of the kata but, as is expected, the bunkai within?

I believe that this happens all of the time, it's just not for me, adding a Kata into the Shindokan syllabus. Do I practice Kata's that aren't in the Shindokan syllabus? Oh yeah! But I also know the Kata, inside/outside, including Bunkai/Oyo Bunkai of that Kata. Even then, my Oyo allows me to interpret the Kata anyway I want.

As WNM states so precise...

But to study kata correctly, you have to understand it (on a conceptual level).

 

Kata doesn't work if you are not taught to think outside of it.

As Otsuka sensei writes - "Enter into Kata then withdraw from Kata"... to produce forms with no limits - to rely on trained instinct rather than "habit"

 

One should not get "stuck" in them!!

The Japanese have an expression "Igata" - which literally speaking refers to a "mould" from which you would re-produce 1000's of identical replica pots.

It is important to avoid "Igata" when training in Karate kata.

This is why you need a good sensei to explain how Kata based karate ticks, in order to get the most out of it (as opposed to an "online tutorial" (by the "bunkai master" and the likes)).

Another important fact to take into consideration is that we are all built differently - particularly here in the west, which is not so much the case in Asia where bodies are far more standardised (or at least used to be).

The bold type speaks soundly as to how Kata should be practiced by all who practice Kata.

[furry_Homeboy]

What does Shu-Ha-Ri mean?

Also, it is only natural that katas will vary both in teaching and performance. Seeing as each person is unique, it is sometimes more appropiate to teach somebody a different kata first, or a teacher may be more capable of teaching the katas in a different order than a different teacher who has a different preference in order or method.

Not to mention that through time each person who performs the kata slightly different may then pass it on to somebody else who then performs it even more slightly different, but so long as the essence of the kata or just some form of practicality is still there, then there is nothing the matter with this.

The school in which I study we perform a number of katas slightly different than other schools. For example, our Heian Yodan, or Pinan Yodan, is different than the way you would see it usually performed in a diagram or most books. It is still obviously Heian Yodan, but there are differences evident.

One last thing to note is that there are many possible bunkai for each kata movements and depending upon what you imagine in your mind's eye is going on for each movement, then the kata will appear slightly different. Change is natural.

[sensei8]

What does Shu-Ha-Ri mean?

Simply stated, it means "hold, break, leave" which are the levels of learning of a person.

Shu, the practitioner tries to obey the rules.

Ha, the practitioner tries to break free from the old rules.

Ri, the practitioner tries to leave/depart from the rules.

That's as basic as I can put it.

[Fish]

I wonder whether there is a Chinese whispers effect as well. I.e. Sensei subconsciously makes a slight change to kata because it suits his own approach (e.g. changes a stance in part of the kata from, say, seishan to shiko dachi) and then passes that on to his students. They then pass it on in turn, together with any subtle changes they make.

I have found such differences in the way kata are taught at the dojo I attend as compared with books/ videos by other sensei.

[sensei8]

I wonder whether there is a Chinese whispers effect as well. I.e. Sensei subconsciously makes a slight change to kata because it suits his own approach (e.g. changes a stance in part of the kata from, say, seishan to shiko dachi) and then passes that on to his students. They then pass it on in turn, together with any subtle changes they make.

I have found such differences in the way kata are taught at the dojo I attend as compared with books/ videos by other sensei.

I'm sure that there are more than whispers effect. Change is enivitable, therefore, change can't be ignored, nor can it be denied and/or restricted. No matter from who, what, when, where, why, and how! Are they wrong to change? That's for one to decide on their own!

Allow the change to accure because it's a natural occurence in 'its' evolution!