The Hidden Danger of Kata

[Bon]

'They await their Sensei in Silence. The students sit straight backed, with their feet folder under them in the traditional way.

 

Dressed in a worn and faded Gi, The Sensei makes his way to the front of the Dojo, and turns to face his Students.

 

"Kata" he begins. "Kata are said to be thousands of years old. They are a complex pattern of defensive blocks and counters in which are found the deadliest movements, hidden throughout the centries. When you follow these ancient steps, you are walking in the footsteps of the Masters of old...."

 

Now if there aint a sucker born every minute.

 

Kata, Kuen, or Hyung. They are arguably, the most loveds and hated facets of the martial arts world. The student is to practice pre hearsed movents until perfection is attained. Thereby exposing the student to deeper level of mastery over his or her art. Some traditionalists claim it is the uktimate tool, on the road to Mastery.

 

These people need to be evaluated.

 

There is nothing you can gain by practicing Kata that you cannot gain 2 fold in practice of a different kind.

 

Strengthand conditioning? Grapple. It works all of your body and is a realistic form of training. Its pracitioners are always in the very best of shape.

 

Punches and Kicks? Thai pad drills. You will work EFFECTIVE striking on actual targets. This will build speed, focus and accuracy while providing a great workout as well.

 

History and Culture? Read a book. Im sure the author is far more qualified to speak of history and tradition than a guy in a karate uniform shouting "Hai-yaa!".

 

Ki? []] We'll talk about that next time.

 

Its my opinion that the main advantage of Kata is that it allows a fat old guy who cant really perform his chosen art to teach as if he has a fountain of information.

 

"Turn your chambered hand sliiiiighty to your left...THERE! Perfect.."

 

This guy gets to correct miniscule details of an unworkable technique and his students look at him like hes God almighty.

 

And lets talk about those 'Hidden Moves' that we all here so much about. If you practice the Forms long enough, all the secrets within are revealed. Look, this is the year 2002. You want to teach me a move? Show it to me. Dont have me run around like a good little boy on an Easter Egg hunt. The fact that people actually PAY someone alot of money to be shown this stuff really blows my mind. I guess the feel part of something. Like its their own little chance to play Mr. Miyagi and teach this pattern to those under them.

 

Like the martial arts version of a Star Trek Convention.

 

Before I end Id like to say that Kata can be a valuable tool for children and people who are older and cannot perform other excercises like they once did. Kata can give children focus, and discipline. It can teach them to throw techniques in a straight line, and develop strong legs.

 

For older students it can be a way to excercise and still practice some of the movements of their art.

 

For all other practitioners who are concerned with excersise or self defense, I would advise you to avoid Kata. It is an outdated practice of heavily flawed technique.'

 

 

[taezee]

i agree with you bon..so much emphasis is placed on kata..forms..hyung..especially as far as advancing through the ranks..however as far as having combat practicality i would compare these as praticing how to load a musket..and firing to having a fully automatic weapon as a glock or m17 rifle..the only way you can learn how to swim properly and not drown is to get in the water and swim and not stay on the side of the pool and pratice what it may be like...and thats how i see the practice of forms or kata..just going through the motions swimming on dry land..till the day comes that someone unexpectedly pushes you into the pool ( as in an actual attack on your person) that you find yourself drowning in the wasted practice of prereherased moves which have no relation to actual combat) while i agree it is important at first for the building of basic techniques it is not to be practced religiously for real self defense!! moves are moves and combat is combat!! unfortunately alot of moves which are praticed over and over have no meaning in combat...just as bruce lee once said "kata or forms are nothing more then a classical mess"

 

_________________

 

Javier l Rosario

 

bayshore new york

 

instructor taekwondo/hapkido

 

"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to kick your ass"

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-10 00:04 ]

[G95champ]

I guess I am the defender of the kata.

 

So here goes.

 

1. If you are in martial arts to learn to fight that is fine. Not all of us are. In fact most of us are not. Yes its a nice add and it may have been what first got us into it but Ill bet the farm most karate (not Martial arts) students will tell you they are in class for something else. Fitness, Inner peace, hobby, etc.

 

2. As far as the hidden moves go. Yes they are there. If everything is given to you in life what fun is it? I like to work for things. Let me also say karate is not a style like Shotokan or Kempo. Every person does his onw karate. No 2 are the same. Thus eveyone must find his or her own nitch in his art and kata is where that comes from.

 

3. As far as playing God. Well sadly that goes on too much in dojo's across the world. However it don't in mine and that is all I can speak on. I mess up all the time on my kata in class and I tell the kids I did so. In fact I do it on purpose a lot to see if they catch it.

 

4. As far as walking where masters once did. Im sorry that point makes no sense. Millions of people go to historic or religous sites each year to walk where great leaders once did. Muslims must go to Meca once in their life. Millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims go to the Holly land. American battlefields like Gettysburg gets thousands of people a day to walk down the lines that Robert E. Lee once stood. Those who forget history are doomed to repead it. To know the past we know ourselves.

 

Finaly point. Those who fear things often attack them. If you want me to cite ex. I will. Just because you disagree there is no reason to bash it. I myself strongly dislike homosexuals. I don't understand it and don't want to. However I don't go arround talking about how bad and evil it is. Your post does bring up questions that many must address. However its not all about fighting. As you said yourslef kids, older people, etc. Karate is a life long deal. 99% of us martial artists are not going to become professional fighters.

 

Funakoshi set up a pyrmid of training. The bottom leval was basics. It was not high but it is a very broad base. The middle section is kata. Its not the base of the style but its the center like the heart in the body it gives it life. The top point was sparring. The only way you can become a good karate person is to get to the top. Sparring is the smallest section of the pyrmid. Maybe Funakoshi save the best for last. However when you build a hose you don't put the roof on first or at least I don't.

 

Anyone who says karate is all about fighting I will show you a person who does not understand karate. Key word there being karate. Some Martial Arts like Kickboxing and Ju-Jitsu are about fighting. Likewise they do not have kata or don't use them much if they do. However is there really a big differance in kata and shadow boxing? Thats a question...

 

Karate is like a car with AC. Yeah it takes a while to get cool but once it does its nice. Part of the pleasure is to play with the buttons to figure out how to make it cool. Fighting arts just crank down the windows and go 55mph. You get cool fast sick you head out and have a good time. Just watch out for trees......

 

 

[AnonymousOne]

Bon

 

I have been training almost 30 years now. Its been my whole life, however I could not disagree with you more.

 

Are you saying an expert in Kata has no skill? My recent trip to Japan totally refutes that and I think the contrary is actually true. I think ones skills can be measured by performance in Kata.

 

I have to say, all due respect, its only ever the young people that say that. All advanced Karate-Ka I have ever met, here and in Japan, support Kata practise 100%

 

 

 

_________________

 

Roku-Dan - Soft teachers make soft students

 

[ This Message was edited by: AnonymousOne on 2002-07-10 01:41 ]

[Ti-Kwon-Leap]

It's funny how people who are against kata have techniques that are closer in resemblence to "toughman" competitiors than to Bruce Lee.

 

My last form took me 15 minutes to learn; I do it twice a day.

 

The total time it takes me to do go through it twice? ...TWO MINUTES.

 

Now I'm sorry if some of you think that hose two minutes are somehow going to make me less of a fighter, believe me they won't.

 

Do I do my form with more conviction, power and seriousness than anyone in my school?

 

answer: yes.

 

If someone asks me to spar or attacks me suddenly do I break out into a form?

 

answer: try me.

 

People are always looking for shortcuts.

 

Wisdom comes with age.

 

One must learn the rules before one can break them. Even Bruce Lee knew that.

 

Once he learned to do his basics he had the tools to express himself as a fighter.

 

Without his classical background he would not have been who he was.

 

It shaped him wothout him even knowing it.

 

That is not saying that he should have continued doing classical forms all his life.

 

Learn from past masters and take it to the next level.

 

If all you want to do is "beat people up" then go take a kickboxing class and leave forms to people who can understand thier proper place and use.

 

You would have better luck trying to convince a pianist that practicing scales is a waste of time.

 

The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter. -Gitchin Funakoshi

 

 

 

_________________

 

 

 

 

 

[ This Message was edited by: Ti-Kwon-Leap on 2002-07-10 03:16 ]

[shotochem]

The practice of Katas is very important it helps with your form and proper body mechanics. Better body mechanics=better stronger faster techniques. It can only enhance your abilities.

 

 

[Don Gwinn]

I am a rank beginner, but I don't mind learning the forms in order to advance. I find it's a good way to work on the stances and blocks by myself. I realize I will not use these movements exactly as they are performed in the form (in my case, clumsily) but I believe in doing the movement ideally in practice in order to be able to do it under less ideal circumstances in practice.

 

All physical activities are like this. In a football game, you're not likely to be able to sink your butt with your knees bent far enough to put your shoulders below your opponent's waste, hands inside, elbows high, head perfectly straight up, and chop your feet at high speed to push him out of the way.

 

However, if you don't practice it that way against air then a large, unshaven man in cheap shorts and a polo shirt will break his foot off in your a**.

 

That's because he wants you to practice it that way so that you can get as close as possible in the game, even though he knows you won't do it the ideal way.

 

 

[KickChick]

Not another "kata is worthless" thread

If all you want to do is "beat people up" then go take a kickboxing class and leave forms to people who can understand thier proper place and use.

 

You would have better luck trying to convince a pianist that practicing scales is a waste of time.

 

The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter. -Gitchin Funakoshi

 

Ti-Kwon-Leap on 2002-07-10 03:16 ]

 

.... this deserved to be repeated.

 

People like Bon who denounce kata/forms practice as impractical, may actually practice it themselves.

 

Quote from G95champ: "However is there really a big difference in kata and shadow boxing? Thats a question... "

 

Kata not a good form of training for actual fighting? ..... in preparation for fighting competition, a person may spend many hours 'shadow boxing', which is actually just a spontaneous method of practicing Kata. In all truth, there was a time in martial arts history when all Kata, in all countries, were only extemporaneous, because freestyle practice developed the freedom of movement and the unrestricted mind necessary for excellence in combat.

 

First of all it is important to understand what constitutes true Kata. Forms that contain moves which do not have combat significant, especially those which are full of superfluous moves and most especially acrobatics, are not true Kata.

 

In some of the older styles of martial arts ....basics, are put together spontaneously to form a kata. The practitioner creates the kata/form by visualizing attackers and moving extemporaneously to counter each one. This type of battle in the mind helps to develop a great deal of sophistication, through the study of technique and its application. The more modern type of martial art training which uses prearranged kata/forms, it is still understood that there is no single set of applications to the moves.

 

Regardless of what martial art system you train in, the moves in Kata can be interpreted in at least five different ways.

 

1. the front or regular techniques. These are the obvious interpretations, where a punch or kick is done forthright.

 

2. meaning the rear or reverse techniques... meaning simply, alternative techniques, or literally the reverse movement forming new interpretations by doing the movements directly in reverse and seeing how they can be applied to actual combat.

 

3. Concealed techniques.... hidden in many movements, that seem to be preliminary moves or intermediate moves, are actual striking and throwing skills. Some of the most effective techniques in the martial arts are those that are 'concealed.'

 

4. Variation techniques, are the many modifications which can be performed using any of the basic moves. Many martial artists think that a certain technique can only be used against one attack or one type of attack. Yet the truth is, that once you understand the principles upon which the technique is based, and have a full understanding of combat rhythm, then the particular move can be applied against many different attacks.

 

5. Sacrifice techniques. These are techniques to be used when you are at a disadvantage or in an awkward position. These are techniques in which you purposefully throw yourself off balance which allow you to counter attack the opponent by surprise.

 

To master all 5 of these areas of kata allows a person to have formlessness even in prearranged forms, and to develop a complete understanding of the potential of their martial arts in combat. This is the problem of practicing the martial arts as sports only.

 

Each move should be looked at for what it can accomplish under any self defense circumstance.

 

Kata is at the highest level of training takes place ... it allows you to develop a true understanding of movement through technique and it'sd application.

 

 

[Mr.Man]

I am not an advanced student in my art nor do I ever claim to be but I can see that the forms are not useless. If I remember correctly, isn't the martial arts about mind, body and spirit. Even I could tell from the beginning that there was a connection with the forms and the other aspects of my art that they were connected. I could feel it. I did not feel like if my forms were perfect I would be the best fighter. I know I must be weird but I like doing my forms. To me, it's calming and just makes me feel connected with my art. Maybe for those who hate doing their kata you can try seeing it in a different light and not try to figure out how it will make you a better fighter but just let it be what it is ( a part of your art )

[Pacificshore]

Kata just like any of your other skills learned is a method of understanding/practicing movements and reactions. Does this mean this will be the way you fight on the street or anywhere else? I don't think so. How many have worked on self defense moves that had various techniques in them, and when you actually did it at full speed, you left certain moves out?

 

If so, did you realized that you left out moves, or did you ADJUST to how the persons body reacted in front of you? I see the same thought process in Kata training. How it's practiced and how it is applied can be two different things. It'll never be the perfect scenario no matter how you work it because there are too many variables involved.

 

When I was younger, I thought the same thing about Kata and it's use. Now as I have grown older, hopefully wiser, I see that Kata is an important part of my training, as well as my students. Just my point of view