Karate blocks

[balloo]

Several of the styles I have tried practice combinations that do not seem logical to me, and use principles that do not seem effective. For example, in Tae Kwon Do they teach you to perform an out to in block across your chest, (also found in karate) but then to counter punch you have to reverse direction to the opposite side of your body. To punch in that manner you must stop the force of the block reverse the force to punch. It seems to take a great deal of energy. They teach you stay so tense when you move as well, it gets tiring very quickly. I mean no disrespect to any art, I have seen several fine practitioners of each, but some of the principles do not make sense to me. What does everyone else think?

[sensei8]

You might not like my answer.

It looks ineffective to you because:

1) You're doing the combo/techniques wrong in totality

2) You're not allowing one tech to finish before the other begins

Whether the block/punch look the same, each are seperate. Remaining tense througout each technique only slows it down. Tense at the very end, then become relaxed to allow the next technique to begin. Both the block and the punch are seperate!!!!

they teach you to perform an out to in block across your chest, (also found in karate) but then to counter punch you have to reverse direction to the opposite side of your body. To punch in that manner you must stop the force of the block reverse the force to punch. It seems to take a great deal of energy.

The reverse direction as you describe isn't counter-productive. As the block has caused you to go to, for example, the right. The punch is being helped by your hip rotation as you come back from the right into center of your target. Hips are vital and the sooner martial artists understand hip movements and the like, the better martial artists they will be. You must stop the force of one technique before the next technique can begin!

I mean no disrespect to any art, I have seen several fine practitioners of each, but some of the principles do not make sense to me.

I mean no disrespect to you at all! It's possible that you're just beginning on your martial arts journey, if so, that's fine. Things will become more clearer to you over time, be patient, and seek knowledge!

If you've been a practitioner of the martial arts for some time now and things don't make sense to you. That too is ok, let time be your teacher...or...ignore what is useless and absorb what is usefull...or practice until it becomes clearer...or...don't try to understand it, just do it! But not understanding it is wrong!

Master Han said to Grasshopper..."Pick one!" For some, the martial arts is a sound pick, while for others, the martial arts isn't for them!

[tallgeese]

Trad blocks are one of the big problems I have with most karate systems. I'm going to take a beating on this one so I apologize in advance, but the OP did ask for our opinions.

They are typically too rigid in application to intercept force effectively and tend to stop one's motion prior to counter. The terminal position of them also tends to be too square in many systems and will allow the collapse of the block and thus allow the completion of the bad guys strike despite the fact they might have been in position.

Also, they have become so ritualized that you'll rarely see one used in a fluid fighting encounter. The chambers are diverting from the final goal and the motions take too long to complete. Because of this, they tend to be complicated to execute and even harder to make corrections to mid-action.

Most systems also tend to drop the hands low to cover body shots and groin shots as well. This is a major problem since it moves a hand away from one's very vulnerable head, a favorite target of just about any one attacking you. Of course there are exceptions, but we're talking about a base pattern here.

I prefer a zoned defense that utilizes the natural weapons that are there to protect an area. Hands for the head, elbows for the body, legs for the groin and legs. Coupled with body and head movements, this makes for an easier defensive scheme that is quicker to learn and easier to apply and adapt to rapidly changing situations.

So, the block across the chest that balloo describes becomes slightly different. If a threat is incoming to the solar plexus. The body shifts out and rotates to put an elbow and forearm in line with the attack as it comes in. The idea being to shunt it off, best case; or to take the impact on the resilient forearms in a less than idea situation. This motion is simpler and keeps the hands at the head where they need to be. It also keeps them in a natural spot from which to launch a counter strike.

Movements that are more along the lines of parries and hand checks that intercept attacks seem to be more functional than "blocking" per se and more intuitive to counter out of and attack good targets on the baddie.

I'd also agree with sensei8, the ma's aren't for everyone. But there are enough options out there that your odds are pretty good of finding one that will fit what you're looking for.

[joesteph]

n Tae Kwon Do they teach you to perform an out to in block across your chest, (also found in karate) but then to counter punch you have to reverse direction to the opposite side of your body. To punch in that manner you must stop the force of the block reverse the force to punch. It seems to take a great deal of energy. They teach you stay so tense when you move as well, it gets tiring very quickly.

 

If this is the same outside-to-inside block that I train with in Soo Bahk Do, another Korean art, then I'd have to say that I understand your thoughts.

 

I use this in certain one-step sparring exercises and, examining the movement of my body in tune with this block, considered it a waste. Now that I'm a green belt (6th gup--midway up the non-dan belt chain), my teacher had me participate in a certain non-required sparring exercise with a partner, so our hands were up in fighting position, left lead, with me using the high guard to protect my face. When he threw a reverse punch to my midsection, I had to twist my body while performing that block from where my right arm was, and she worked at introducing me/us to getting out of the way by that twist, deflecting with that right forearm, then twisting back into place to fire off to my opponent's face with my left. One of the concentrations in this exercise is to be relaxed and fluid, not tense and rigid, to do it smoothly.

 

In the original one-step sparring--a training--exercise that I first encountered this block, it's included in a specific manner, but it's too bad the practical application isn't introduced right afterwards. I can't fault my teacher, as she has a number of requirements to teach us, especially because of testing, before the luxury of more realistic applications can consume class time.

 

BTW, I thought of a way of redoing that original exercise, with the palm, not the back of the hand, in the direction of the block. When I spoke with the assistant instructor, he showed me that variation and how the hand can redirect the opponent's punching arm, leaving him open to a punch to the face or midsection. I can see that being down the road.

[DWx]

they teach you to perform an out to in block across your chest, (also found in karate) but then to counter punch you have to reverse direction to the opposite side of your body. To punch in that manner you must stop the force of the block reverse the force to punch. It seems to take a great deal of energy.

The reverse direction as you describe isn't counter-productive. As the block has caused you to go to, for example, the right. The punch is being helped by your hip rotation as you come back from the right into center of your target. Hips are vital and the sooner martial artists understand hip movements and the like, the better martial artists they will be. You must stop the force of one technique before the next technique can begin!

That is exactly the reason why our school would do it this way. Blocking with one arm, countering with the other is als othe method thats taught to beginners because it gets you used to that hip twist motion. Later on you'd get taught to use the same arm for both bits of the combo (so maybe a block and then a backfist off of your right arm) but if you teach it this way straight off you tend to find that they don't use the upper body so much and just rely on the arm movement alone.

So, the block across the chest that balloo describes becomes slightly different. If a threat is incoming to the solar plexus. The body shifts out and rotates to put an elbow and forearm in line with the attack as it comes in. The idea being to shunt it off, best case; or to take the impact on the resilient forearms in a less than idea situation. This motion is simpler and keeps the hands at the head where they need to be. It also keeps them in a natural spot from which to launch a counter strike.

Movements that are more along the lines of parries and hand checks that intercept attacks seem to be more functional than "blocking" per se and more intuitive to counter out of and attack good targets on the baddie.

This is more along the lines of what we would do. Unless you are striking with the block, the motion continues through so that the attacking arm is moved and the body is opened up.

[Kuma]

I am a big fan of uke waza (blocking techniques), and I feel that in many ways they are more effective than striking techniques. Bear with me here.

I'm a fan of the philosophy that a block should also be an attack. I've done a bit of kote kitae and sune kitae to know that a good hard block from a well conditioned limb can be devastating. A good strong block can sometimes take the fight out of your opponent right then and there. Naturally your block won't quite look like that you see in kihon, but the mechanics remain the same.

I do believe that the traditional uke waza do have their merits however. Take chudan soto uke, what many would consider a basic block. If you compare the mechanics of chudan soto uke with a standing straight arm bar (the hikite grasping the wrist and the block at the elbow), you'll see they're extremely similar. In many cases you can see numerous applications for blocks in this manner.

Here's an article that addresses this somewhat. Naturally I don't agree with everything he says or does, but it is a good article nonetheless.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Lawrence_Kane_8.asp

[Dobbersky]

Osu!!!!

Kuma-san, we are brothers in knockdown karate.

What we need to look at is the word "block" - there are NO blocks in Karate. "Uke" means "to receive".

If you use "Tai Sabaki" (body movement) you'll find that this comes into play better and as you turn the hikite, "GyukuTsuki" or Reverse punch comes into play also.

What we are learning here are the basics of what is to come. I have been practicing Karate for 12 years an I feel it is only now am I starting to just understand it.

Its hard to describe it in word as I could go on for pages. But what you'll have to do is trust your Sensei for the moment until you realise the full application of the technique.

My understanding is that as the strike comes you "parry" it across your body grabbing the attacker's wrist as you twist your attacker's arm back across you body turning his arm into a straight arm lock as you grab the shoulder with your right (rear) hand.

Remember a closed fist is not always a punch!!!!!!!

I hope this helps

Enjoy your journey and Real TKD is a fully street effective style (I'm a Ashihara/Wado exponent but I have seen many TKD events).

[ninjanurse]

Yes! I think that until you understand this concept (just one of many) you cannot understand technique. Considering TKD, it's karate roots are very evident in this regard but not obvious to the beginner or "surface" practitioner.

When comparing apples and oranges one must remember its all just fruit!

[tallgeese]

I get what you all are saying. In a few years that movement might come to mean more, or one might understand it better. I'll grant you that.

Respectfully, I just don't get why you'd spend that long to fully comprehend a movement. I might be in a fight tonight. That's a far cry from the 12+ years we're talking about to decode a mid-level blocking motion. Now no one, studying any sort of fighting art, will go from 0 to high speed killer in a day, but if we teach practical movements, that can increase someone effectiveness in short order, isn't that easier for a student to wrap their head around and make meaningful progress more quickly?

I also understand the concept of teaching from simple to complex tasks. Check out the progressions I use in training on that thread. They start basic and build. The problem is that every step in the chain must be effective at every level, or the whole chain becomes suspect with applied by an advanced practitioner. So step one can't be indecipherable to a beginning student or be questionable on the face, regardless of the final product.

I also think that conceptual understanding behind each movement is important. We call in principle based training, but the idea is the same. The thing is, those underlying principles must be unified and work together and be conducted using sound movements that progress one's strategy. This must be applicable from start to finish, beginner to advanced student.

So I see where you're coming from in the wait and see group. But that's too much of a time investment with too far a delayed return for practical application. Minor modification to a)movement and b) mindset will ensure quicker and more effective response to attack. Granted, the more traditional blocking patters will look different than they do now if you go down this path. It' a matter of you're focus in the ma's and what you place most of your efforts into.

[CanFightIt]

Blocking is at best impossible to do unless you are very skilled or have an idea that somethings about to kick off. In karate there is a term called sabaki and inas which imply body movement to absorb or brush/guide away the attack. These do take constant practice to master and there are traditional forms that help you train them. Play outside the traditional box. Who ever said a punch or kick has to be ridden? Be more dangerous than that and rather than block your attackers strikes strike directly back at them. Hit punches and kicks as they come in rather than taking them if you can. Its much faster and when you catch soft tissue on the arms and legs it can be devastating. Of course this skill also needs to be trained so that you are not meeting force directly on. Otherwise your bones break not theirs.

Reflex training comes with experience. Don't try and develop speed of movement because no one is fast enough to avoid everything. Work on the smallest movement at the very last minute because in the real world that's the time and space your playing with. Your feet moves your body not your body moves your feet.

Best wishes.