June Issue of Jissen Magazine Available

[Wa-No-Michi]

This is true, but even though he has found some different ways of approaching things, does it make what he does less than Wado?

Yes.

[tallgeese]

Ok, I'm even curious now, Michi. How's that?

[Wa-No-Michi]

Ok, I'm even curious now, Michi. How's that?

Since it was you that asked tg, I feel you deserve the best response I can give.

What the author was doing imo, was nothing more than "bog-standard" Jujutsu as far as I could see. Doing his best to "shoehorn" these techniques into something that could be linked back to karate basics.

Now; I have got no problem with this "reverse engineering" approach within the term karate (in its broader sense), but from a wado perspective there is a serious risk that you do so at the expense of learning the more important principles behind within the art. Or at least this is how it feels for me.

Remember these are basics.

Take for example shuto-uke (knife hand block) which in Wado is performed to Jodan.... If I remember correctly, the author shows an example of this where he pulls and twist his opponent’s arm down to his left hip, so as to accelerate his right hand impact in shuto strike to his opponent’s neck!

Nothing wrong with this per-se, but imo we do not train Wado shuto (in its basic form anyway) for this reason. We train it in order to perform techniques in "nekoashi". We use it to learn how to enter into you opponent whilst simultaneously "opening" our hips in the opposite direction to way the blocking/striking arm is going... "Double moment" as Shingo Ohgami sensei would refer to it. Imo the "hikite" arm should not have the feeling of pulling, as applying an external force affects the "synergy" of the technique, its timing and purpose. Instead your thoughts should be on how your hips are opening into "nekoashi" - particularly when interacting with a live opponent. Learning this "double moment" movement is also critical towards training "Kuzushi" (balance breaking technques) - found a lot in high level Wado

(BTW I say Nekoashi meaning in terms of the relationship with your hips to your opponent)

The theory being, that if you embed these principles of movement into you Wado, the application of simple techniques will become instinctive and effective. Movement is key.

So, what he was showing imo were simply "techniques" that yes, are found in wado katas, but he has taken them completely out of context - which is very un Wado - imo.

Bet you wished you hadn't asked now

WNM

Edited June 16, 2009 by Wa-No-Michi

[tallgeese]

No, actually. Interesting response.

I've often seen things reverse engineered into katas. The rage for a time was to imply that just about everyone had "secret x-art ground fighting" dating back to ancient origins hidden in their katas.

While many arts might have one time addressed this, I found it humorous that no on had bothered to tell anyone about those particular hidden gems until BJJ hit big in the UFC's.

Interesting. Certainly I can see how one would view it as different than what you're looking to do with wado kata.

[Wa-No-Michi]

No, actually. Interesting response.

I've often seen things reverse engineered into katas. The rage for a time was to imply that just about everyone had "secret x-art ground fighting" dating back to ancient origins hidden in their katas.

While many arts might have one time addressed this, I found it humorous that no on had bothered to tell anyone about those particular hidden gems until BJJ hit big in the UFC's.

Interesting. Certainly I can see how one would view it as different than what you're looking to do with wado kata.

Bingo...

[tallgeese]

I will add, now that I've read thru the various commentaries, that I can see the value in training movements that one is already familiar with and applying them in different manners.

I personally think there are better ways to add these kinds of things to what one is doing than adding it to kata training but that's beside the point. If it's working for you, then have at it. Better yet, if it gets practitioners thinking and training for more varied encounters, it can't be bad.

I can see how it's not authentic to the system. Good points both ways.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I personally think there are better ways to add these kinds of things to what one is doing than adding it to kata training but that's beside the point. If it's working for you, then have at it. Better yet, if it gets practitioners thinking and training for more varied encounters, it can't be bad.

So do I (we in the "Royal" Wado sense ).

That's why in addition to our kata training (which goes part way there to teaching us the principles of movement found within Wado), we have an inordinate amount of pair work / paired kata (compared to other styles) - within which one can hone specific technique, in tandem with the correct ways to move - culminating in "Jiyu Kumite" or free sparing.

Reality has always been at our centre.

WNM

[joesteph]

Take for example shuto-uke (knife hand block) which in Wado is performed to Jodan.... If I remember correctly, the author shows an example of this where he pulls and twist his opponent’s arm down to his left hip, so as to accelerate his right hand impact in shuto strike to his opponent’s neck!

I'm not sure if it affects your response to Tallgeese, Michi, but of the eight "Contacts" and "Actions" demonstrated in the article, six of them are punches to the body, while the seventh and eighth have the defender's arms forming an "X" as he pulls the attacker's arm down and delivers a punch to the neck. Page 69's chart makes them easy to see all at once.

Thinking of the pull and strike you described, in Soo Bahk Do, one of the defense against the wrist grabs, seen as a training exercise, is to pull the opponent's right hand (which seized your left wrist) to your left hip while turning your body at the waist, simultaneously having his pulled hand reach your left hip as your right hand strikes his neck with a knife hand.

The hikite shown is obviously a series of basics, which I'm sure can be found in a number of martial arts.

[bushido_man96]

No, actually. Interesting response.

I've often seen things reverse engineered into katas. The rage for a time was to imply that just about everyone had "secret x-art ground fighting" dating back to ancient origins hidden in their katas.

While many arts might have one time addressed this, I found it humorous that no on had bothered to tell anyone about those particular hidden gems until BJJ hit big in the UFC's.

Interesting. Certainly I can see how one would view it as different than what you're looking to do with wado kata.

Bingo...

Abernethy never claims that ground grappling techniques exist in the katas. In fact, in his books, he has stated that the katas do not contain any grappling (as far as ground fighting goes).

To your knowledge, WNM, does Abernethy abandon what you describe in your posts as the essences of Wado? I don't know what his class layouts are, so I don't know the answer to that one.

[tallgeese]

I've never read any of his stuff. I'm actually planning on getting some of his work to check out since he's highly thought of here on KF.

The tread I was referring to was one I had noticed in the trade mags a few years back.