For Only 19 Years!

[ps1]

Here's what Bruce Lee really had:

1. He was an athletic machine. He would likely have been good at any sport he tried.

2. He was not confined by the rules of an instructor for very long. He trained only what he liked and felt worked. But he had learned very solid basics in Wing Chun.

3. He was smart. He knew what people wanted to hear and see and he gave it to them.

4. GIFT OF GAB. His degree was in philosophy. His whole degree was based on talking in circles and riddles. People really eat that stuff up. He could make himself sound very wise (not to say he wasn't) while using the same old references the ancients had used hunderds and thousands of years in the past.

5. People wanted to believe in him because "if he can be that good...so can I!"

I have no doubt that Lee was a very gifted martial artist who was a rare breed. However, I only believe about half of what was said about him and his skill. He was a braggart. He was the kind of guy that would exaggerate details when it suited him. That was a fact as well.

Let's look at the things you pointed out about him.

*Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second- The speed of the blinking eye is 300-400 miliseconds or 3 to 4 10ths of a second. There is no possibility of a human being moving as fast as you suggest.

*Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24 frames per second, so many scenes were shot in 32 frame per second to put Lee in slow motion.- This is common for film makers to do.

*In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.- A basic slight of hand maneuver used by magicians world wide.

*Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.- If it's true, I'm impressed. But doesn't make him the best that's ever lived.

*Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.- Probably happened once in a bar and his friends carried it on as though it was common place.

*Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened cans of Coca-Cola. (This was when soft drinks cans were made of steel much thicker than today's aluminium cans).- This is much more common than you'd think. Actually, the can being unopened is the key. It's much harder to do to a can that's open because there's no resistance to the strike. It also depends on finger length as the strength of the joints change with length of the digits.

*Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger- He was strong. A great athlete. This also has more to do with the construction of the finger joint and length than strength. I've met many people who can do this, I can't because my fingers are too long for it.

*Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.- To a gymnist, this is an easy workout

*Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches thick.-Huh! I saw this kind of stuff when I was competing. I finally stopped competing when a guy broke 15 bricks with his head.

*Lee could cause a 300lb bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick.-Really? Never had the opportunity, but think I could do that.

*Lee performed a sidekick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150lb punching bag.- I have done this. Admittedly, James Coburn wasn't with me though:)

*In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair. - Gymnasts do this with ease.

-on many of these points the same could be said about Rickson Gracie, Georges St. Piere and many other current martial artists. But that does not make them the best ever.

My point is not to Bash Bruce Lee. The man isn't even alive to defend himself for goodness sake. He did wonders keeping the martial arts alive and in the public eye. I probably wouldn't be training now if it wasn't for his contribution. For that, I am eternally grateful.

But I don't think it honors his memory any more to grant him special powers or make him super human. I realize this was not the entire point of your post. But what you're doing is like telling someone who played college football on scholarship for 4 years and never made the pros that everything they did is worthless because they weren't better than Barry Sanders or Joe Montana or Jerome Bettis. That person may still have been very good.

There can only ever be one "best." Just because you're not him does not make your accomplishments any less important.

[Patrick]

Interesting thread. Thanks for starting it, sensei8.

Obviously not a martial artist here, but it would seem to me that throwing around a word like "best" when talking about martial artists does a disservice to great martial artists, including Mr. Lee.

There is no best martial artist - the arts are far too varied for that. There aren't stats, rushing yards, touchdowns, home runs, three pointers, etc. Even the competitions are varied to the point where such a distinction would be impossible - and even if there isn't, most believe there is more to being a martial artist than just the competitive aspects of some arts.

Because of this, there can never be a best. There can certainly be your favorite, or artists that impress you or maybe even the best in your opinion for your discipline or for a specific aspect of an art, practice or technique... but, the best period just isn't something that can narrowed down, I don't think.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks,

Patrick

[bushido_man96]

I agree.

However, I don't think that there is an arguement towards Lee being considered "the best."

Rather, I think the discussion that sensei8 was trying to generate was in consideration to how much Bruce Lee was able to accomplish in what many would consider to be a very short period of time in the Martial Arts.

[isshinryu5toforever]

It is amazing what Bruce Lee was able to do in 19 years in the martial arts. Not many of us were so lucky to have the amount of time he was able to put into however. If you broke down how many hours he used on martial arts in those 19 years, I would be willing to bet that he used far more time than most of us. That's not to discount what Bruce Lee did. It's still amazing, but it does put it in perspective. When I was at my busiest during high school, I was playing football, working 2-3 jobs at a time (different days of course), and taking classes from 7:40AM-3:45PM. In all of this, I found time to train about a half hour a day. That's not much time. If I hadn't been doing all those things, I would have had much more time to devote to the martial arts, and I would be a much better martial artist.

A prime example of time is Mas Oyama. When he devoted his life to martial arts, he improved his ability astronomically. He already had the tools in place, the build, the athleticism, the god given talent, to be a devestating striker, but his commitment is what pushed him over the top. If there is anything to be said about the truly great martial artists, it is their commitment to their art. Bruce Lee was extremely committed, moreso perhaps than any of us on this board could be. So, I would say that what he did is impressive, but you still have to look at the sheer number of man-hours put in, and the inability (financially, commitment to other things, etc.) that the average person has to give that kind of time to their passion.

[Patrick]

Hey Brian,

Thanks for that. I don't know if there is an argument or not, but I was speaking primarily in reference to these quotes from the first post and the post before mine.

I consider Bruce Lee to have been the best across the board considering every aspect of the martial arts. Bruce Lee did say he could have beaten anybody in the world in a real fight. This, I've never doubted, nor will I ever!

I could, you could, and/or anybody could name "10 Best Martial Artists...EVER!" Of the 10 named individuals that are on your/my list, I'm very sure that there's not one individual that you/I can name who's even close to the skill/knowledge of Bruce Lee, and Bruce was only involved in the martial arts for 19 years.

*Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.- If it's true, I'm impressed. But doesn't make him the best that's ever lived.

-on many of these points the same could be said about Rickson Gracie, Georges St. Piere and many other current martial artists. But that does not make them the best ever

There can only ever be one "best." Just because you're not him does not make your accomplishments any less important.

Thanks,

Patrick

[bushido_man96]

No problem, Patrick. I think that any time Bruce Lee becomes a topic of discussion, "the best" is something that tends to come to mind, too. I just thought I would try a different tack.

[sensei8]

No problem, Patrick. I think that any time Bruce Lee becomes a topic of discussion, "the best" is something that tends to come to mind, too. I just thought I would try a different tack.

Man, I'm guilty of that! It sucks! Why? I'm the first one in a normal conversation to point it out that there's no such thing as best when one is speaking about anything that is of the martial arts because "best" is an temporary illusion! But, soon as the topic goes to Bruce Lee...I'm placing him on a pedestal and praising him...give me a break...I'm the biggest Bruce Lee mark. Here I am...painting a target on my back...DUH!

I will from this point on refrain myself from using the word "best" when I talk about Bruce Lee. Why? Because I'm no slouch when it comes to the martial arts in any shape, way, and/or form! Bruce Lee was just a man, nothing more and nothing less!

[NightOwl]

From what I have read and heard from interviews with famous martial artists that worked with Bruce Lee (like Gene Lebell and Joe Lewis ), Lee was a showman first and a martial artist second. Thus he gained his fame mostly from his movies as opposed to focusing on martial arts. He even told Gene Lebell that he liked some other martial arts styles for what they offered, but they didn't film well for an audience ( http://www.genelebell.com/stories.html#11 ). Had he lived longer I'm sure he would have picked up more and more, but I think legend of Bruce Less tends to get mixed with the life of the actual man....something he probably would have been proud of

[The BB of C]

Even more interesting, Bruce didn't even begin training in Wing Chun until he was fourteen-years-old. I always wonder if there's anyone around today that can do some of the things he did.

[wouldbemaster]

Sorry can't resist it what are peoples thoughts and theories on how he died or what killed him, or is he still alive somewhere?

No-one can take away the impact on generating peoples interest in becomingmartial artists that Bruce Lee had on the world he was the Jimi Hendrix of the martial arts world.

The mystery continues...........