For Only 19 Years!

[sensei8]

Well, here I am, again, pondering in which forum here at KF do I place this topic in. I've no idea, so, again, I depend on the powers that be here at KF to place this topic in an appropriate forum if General Martial Arts isn't where this belongs.

We, martial artists are always speaking of the differing levels of attained skills within the martial arts; there's knowledge versus rank. While the consensus is universal in that knowledge is more important than any rank. Without knowledge, rank is meaningless, empty, and with much void. Without knowledge, rank can't be achieved nor can rank be true. Without knowledge, rank is without substance. This topic isn't about either really. This topic is about the validity of rank when being compared to...Bruce Lee. Don't run away...please...hear me out before you start assuming wrongly...please!

Bruce Lee began his martial arts training at the age of 13 years old. Bruce Lee died at the age of 32 years old. A total of 19 years involved in the martial arts one way or another. 19 years?!? Unbelieveable!

I consider Bruce Lee to have been the best across the board considering every aspect of the martial arts. Bruce Lee did say he could have beaten anybody in the world in a real fight. This, I've never doubted, nor will I ever!

I've been in Shindokan Karate-Do for 44 years...44 years...that's a lifetime! Chronology speaking as far as my martial arts path goes:

*I started Shindokan at age 7 in 1964

*I earned my Jr. Yudansha at age 13 in 1970

[6 years have passed]

*I earned my Shodan at age 18 in 1975

[11 years have passed]

*I earned my Nidan at age 20 in 1977

*I earned my Sandan at age 22 in 1979

*I earned my Yondan at age 26 in 1983

[19 years have passed at this time]

All of this and then some, and I'm not even a hundredeth of a martial artist as Bruce Lee was after 19 years in the martial arts.

My Soke and my Dai-Soke were/are incredible Karateka's, but, their knowledge/skill sets pale against Bruce Lee. I was only a Yondan after 19 years in the martial arts...big whoopee! Please don't misunderstand me, I'm extremely thankful/proud of every accomplishment(s) that I've ever earned because it wasn't easy at all.

I could, you could, and/or anybody could name "10 Best Martial Artists...EVER!" Of the 10 named individuals that are on your/my list, I'm very sure that there's not one individual that you/I can name who's even close to the skill/knowledge of Bruce Lee, and Bruce was only involved in the martial arts for 19 years.

I can name one legend after legend in the martial arts world that have dedicated their entire life in the true journey that is the martial arts, yet, none of these legends come even close to Bruce Lee. Many of these martial arts legends are possessors of Hachidan to Judan, yet, these high Yudansha ranks mean NOTHING! Jhoon Rhee himself once said that he'd never want to fight Bruce because Bruce was way to powerful and way to fast for him. Jhoon Rhee - "You could show him a tremendously difficult technique that took years to perfect and the next time you saw him, he would do it better than you."

After my 44 years in Shindokan, my Hachidan/Hanshi means...nothing...NOTHING! I'm not, your not, your instructor(s) not, heck, nobody is even close to holding a candle to Bruce Lee, and Bruce only did the martial arts for just 19 years! 19 years! 19 years! I can't say that enough.

I've dedicated my entire life to my martial arts journey, I've lived it, I've breathed it, I've eat it, I've drank it, I've this and that every waking moment of my life, yet, I'm nothing, not even close, to the skill set, as well as to the knowledge set that was Bruce Lee...after only 19 years in the martial arts. Who is/was?

I'm extremely knowledgeable, yet, my path is still on-going. I'm extremely skilled at Shindokan, but, I've a way to still go. I'm extremely fast/powerful, but, I'm not at where I'd like to be. I can rock and roll with the best of them, I might even teach them a thing or two. But, I'm trying to be open and honest with myself, something that many in the martial arts aren't willing to do themselves.

Shoot, Bruce possessed skill sets that still boggle the mind. For example:

*Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.

*Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24 frames per second, so many scenes were shot in 32 frame per second to put Lee in slow motion.

*In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.

*Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.

*Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.

*Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened cans of Coca-Cola. (This was when soft drinks cans were made of steel much thicker than today's aluminium cans).

*Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger

*Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.

*Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches thick.

*Lee could cause a 300lb bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick.

*Lee performed a sidekick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150lb punching bag.

*In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.

Yeah, yeah...I know...the aboved feats could be labeled as only parlour tricks. But, mind you, even to do these types of parlour tricks requires alot of honed/practiced skills/abilities to execute.

If nothing else, Bruce Lee's 19 year involvement in the martial arts proves that knowledge is far superior to rank! All of us martial artists that possess high Dan ranking better realize one thing...you're/we're not all of that and a bag of chips! There's always someone better than us/you...his name was Bruce Lee and he was just that darn good after only being in the martial arts for only...19 years!

Come on...19 years...that's nothing compared to a lifetime of dedication to the martial arts, and some legendary figures have been in the martial arts for some 40-75 years.

You high Dan ranks, just throw your Yudansha into the trash if your rank is more important than your lacking knowledge....please!

Edited May 22, 2009 by sensei8

[DWx]

Nice post sensei8. No doubt that Bruce Lee was an incredibly talented martial artist. However, (I know a lot of people won't like this), I don't think he should be put up onto such a pedestal as the greatest maist ever. Sure he was definitely up there among the greatest but to be honest there are probably plenty of great maists around who we've never even heard of. One of the reasons Bruce Lee was so well known is because of his film career, what would he have been without it? The other thing is that Bruce Lee had all these oppotunities. As I understand it he didn't exactly grow up poor and he had plenty off time and money to devote to MA, a lot of people don't have that. I mean there could be 100s of people who could become equally as good if they could give over 100% of their time to training and if they'd been doing it this way since there were kids.

*In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.

No offense but this is really easy. My instructor frequently uses it as an example that reaction is slower than action because it is incredibly difficult to close or move your hand faster enough once the other person is in motion.

All of the skills you listed are really difficult to do but still I don't think they are exclusive to Bruce Lee. Check out 1.08 in this video for a 6" board break, or

or anything else you can probably find an example of it on YouTube or somewhere similar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit the guy and I do get the point you're making and I agree that knowledge is far more superior to rank, its just that I really don't like people using Bruce Lee as the ultimate martial artist.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I am with DWX here really.

I have no reason to believe that Bruce Lee wasn't an exceptional martial artist and a great athlete, but there are a number of martial artists that I would put on a pedestal before him.

WNM

[sensei8]

I deeply bow to both Wa-No-Michi and DWx as their posts were exceptional as to their points. Points that I'll not dispute at this time, if at all, for their points were solid.

While, it may seem by what I've written in the OP as though I worship Bruce Lee and that I place Bruce Lee upon any pedestal over any martial artist world wide; this is the furthest thing from my mind. My feelings towards Bruce Lee are of only sincere respect as to his knowledge/skills. Knowledge/skills that he obtained after only 19 years, and 19 years is nothing in the world of the martial arts when a lifetime of dedication is considered. While I can respect Bruce Lee, and I do, I don't subscribe to many of his theories and methodologies. Why? Because they're his theories and methodologies and not mine.

Bruce Lee's feats were just that; feats. Many are well documented while some are from unreliable sources. Still, feats, imho, are not the martial arts. Do I respect Bruce Lee for these feats? Yes, as I do for any other martial artist who's established a feat or two themselves within the martial arts world.

I challenge any martial artist with 19 years of experience in the martial arts to honestly and openly re-evaluate themselves, as I've done many times, and then ask themselves this one question: "After 19 years of experience in the martial arts, AM I AS GOOD AS BRUCE LEE WAS AFTER 19 YEARS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?"

"I don't/won't compare myself to Bruce Lee, now or ever!" While this is true for many, including myself, sometimes a measuring stick is just that...something to measure...and that something might be ourselfs; a comparison if nothing else. I too, am complete in my totality, but, doubting oneself isn't an end to every means, especially in the martial arts! I've not said, although my OP might've suggested otherwise, that Bruce Lee is the ultimate martial artist! NO! He's one of a many possible measuring sticks for us to compare against. My most profound measuring stick is my Dai-Soke, in which he's stated numerous times over the years, "Exceed me; this is my ultimate desire for my students!" Yet, for this topic/thread, Bruce Lee is the measuring stick that I've chosen at this time.

Try to answer my question as stated above, then, possibly, we can talk further!

Edited May 23, 2009 by sensei8

[Wa-No-Michi]

I challenge any martial artist with 19 years of experience in the martial arts to honestly and openly re-evaluate themselves, as I've done many times, and then ask themselves this one question: "After 19 years of experience in the martial arts, AM I AS GOOD AS BRUCE LEE WAS AFTER 19 YEARS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?"

Try to answer my question as stated above, then, possibly, we can talk further!

I suppose though, in order to answer that question, you have to define the criteria that makes a good martial artist.

Or more importantly what you as an individual define as important.

WNM

[sensei8]

I challenge any martial artist with 19 years of experience in the martial arts to honestly and openly re-evaluate themselves, as I've done many times, and then ask themselves this one question: "After 19 years of experience in the martial arts, AM I AS GOOD AS BRUCE LEE WAS AFTER 19 YEARS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?"

Try to answer my question as stated above, then, possibly, we can talk further!

I suppose though, in order to answer that question, you have to define the criteria that makes a good martial artist.

Or more importantly what you as an individual define as important.

WNM

Another point I can't argue nor will I. Having said that, you've layed out what is your/the criteria, therefore, all that's missing is your answer. If this answer is to remain private, I respect your wishes.

My answer to the question is...NO! After only 19 years in the Martial Arts as a mere Yondan, I wasn't no where close to what Bruce Lee had. In a lifetime, 19 years is infancy at best.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I challenge any martial artist with 19 years of experience in the martial arts to honestly and openly re-evaluate themselves, as I've done many times, and then ask themselves this one question: "After 19 years of experience in the martial arts, AM I AS GOOD AS BRUCE LEE WAS AFTER 19 YEARS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?"

Try to answer my question as stated above, then, possibly, we can talk further!

I suppose though, in order to answer that question, you have to define the criteria that makes a good martial artist.

Or more importantly what you as an individual define as important.

WNM

Another point I can't argue nor will I. Having said that, you've layed out what is your/the criteria, therefore, all that's missing is your answer. If this answer is to remain private, I respect your wishes.

My answer to the question is...NO! After only 19 years in the Martial Arts as a mere Yondan, I wasn't no where close to what Bruce Lee had. In a lifetime, 19 years is infancy at best.

Ditto,

My answer is also No.

But then that doesn't make either you or me any less a martial artist than Bruce Lee - if only for the want of trying to constantly improve

WNM

[sensei8]

I challenge any martial artist with 19 years of experience in the martial arts to honestly and openly re-evaluate themselves, as I've done many times, and then ask themselves this one question: "After 19 years of experience in the martial arts, AM I AS GOOD AS BRUCE LEE WAS AFTER 19 YEARS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS?"

Try to answer my question as stated above, then, possibly, we can talk further!

I suppose though, in order to answer that question, you have to define the criteria that makes a good martial artist.

Or more importantly what you as an individual define as important.

WNM

Another point I can't argue nor will I. Having said that, you've layed out what is your/the criteria, therefore, all that's missing is your answer. If this answer is to remain private, I respect your wishes.

My answer to the question is...NO! After only 19 years in the Martial Arts as a mere Yondan, I wasn't no where close to what Bruce Lee had. In a lifetime, 19 years is infancy at best.

Ditto,

My answer is also No.

But then that doesn't make either you or me any less a martial artist than Bruce Lee - if only for the want of trying to constantly improve

WNM

WNM, you're absolutely correct! I've never thought any less of myself because I'm solid across the board when the martial arts is concerned. I'm no Bruce Lee, and I'm content with that because I'm me, and in that, I'm complete in my own totality.

[BDPulver]

WNM is smart. I had a whole thing written for this topic but thought twice before I hit submit.

Too many times people place Bruce on that high pedestal. He was a remarkable man but by no means how you want to be like him. There was alot of stuff that man did that most would not attempt (electrode training for example).

To me, if you want to admire someone I always felt it should be your actual role model. Mine was my teacher, I thought he was better then bruce because of his knowlegde with isshinryu and being a school teacher.

My one role model was chuck norris as well cause of the things he has done also. I've always been into martial artists who donated there time to kids (like the kick drugs theme and cancer donations). To me that is the greatest accomplishment then training yourself like bruce did.

There is so much more to the ma then being a imatation bruce. So pitted yourself on that 19 yr stretch like bruce is kinda stretching it.

I've been in ma for 30 yrs, isshinryu for close to 25 yrs. In that time have I achieve what he did. Sometimes I wish I did but that would mean I gave my time to the art instead of my family. I cherish my style alot but my daughter comes first. That is something that is different bout bruce. From all I read and scene of bio's he loved his family but gave all to the style first. That might seem harsh but that is my opinion on him.

If he never made those 4 movies no one would really know much bout him except from mag's like Black Belt and his books and maybe his old students.

Well till I can think of more I'll bow out for now.

[bushido_man96]

Bruce Lee was known by his incredible feats and physical abilities. I think a lot of his popularity has come from his exposure, and he definitely used that to his advantage. Who wouldn't, especially when you are pushing a new philosophy that many haven't heard of?

I don't think I am as good physically as Bruce Lee was after his 19 years in training. Would I like to be, oh yeah. That would be great. But, I just keep plugging away, looking to improve as I go along. I pray that I get to have more than 19 years in the Martial Arts.