"Sharp" punches

[Wa-No-Michi]

Creating polar opposites has its place in your karate training (ie dynamic tension vs fluid movement) but it takes years of training to subsume this understanding in your training... outside of this it adds conflict in my opinion. I agree that karate training at certain levels is about rules and contradictions to them (as part of the training structure of the school), but martial arts like karate have to be functional IMO, and if there is conflict in how to make them work properly there is a risk they will let you down should you need them (god forbid).

Upon re-reading the last line of my post, I feel I have not gotten my point over clearly.

The "polar opposites" as Shizentai refers to, do play an important part of you karate training ie; fast, slow, tensed, relaxed etc., but...these are training apparatus. They are ways to train ourselves how to be in total control of our bodies.

Application is the next step... perhaps

WNM

[Shizentai]

I would say that a punch can and probably should stay relaxed through the point of impact as well. The action of tensing muscle groups should typically be done at the end of the technique (on its return journey after it has travelled through the target), this is more to do with protecting from hyper-extension rather than generating power. If you think about it, the action of "tensing" involves engaging different muscle groups in opposite directions...to work against each other. How can that add power to a punch?

I think you are misunderstanding my meaning of "tense." When I say it, I don't mean rigid or stiff-bodied at all. I mean "the contraction of a muscle."

At any instant while you are standing you are in part tense and in part relaxed (yet again the balance thing). It's impossible to stand while being truly 100% relaxed, much less move (save being rolled down a hill or something). There are different muscle groups we can tense and relax independently and to different degrees. I was speaking specifically about the muscles in the hand, armpit and abs. I agree that muscles like your deltoids or neck muscles (for instance) should stay as relaxed as possible throughout. Tensing the hand into a tight fist protects the fingers. Tensing armpit muscles keeps the arm in alignment. Tensing the abs and buttock connects the punch to the hip and thereby the ground since it's what your legs are standing on. That doesn't mean pushing. If you're tense opposing groups before the moment of impact, that's pushing.

Why connect to the ground? Newton's 3rd law: "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

See, as a 109 lb girl, the amount of force I can strike with when I am using nothing but my own weight behind a punch is severely limited due to my body's backward motion with every strike I make. However, if I simply connect my legs to the ground and send my momentum forward, (some people call this "kinetic linking" I think), I can hit with more force. Punch force from a ~150lb man has been measured over a ton per square inch using this method (not a weak punch in my opinion). The "tensing" I was talking about was simply this leg/hip thrust since you have to tense a muscle in order to step in.

I hope that cleared it up, because I think I agree with you on most things and I didn't mean to make it seem otherwise.

The "polar opposites" as Shizentai refers to, do play an important part of you karate training ie; fast, slow, tensed, relaxed etc., but...these are training apparatus. They are ways to train ourselves how to be in total control of our bodies.

Application is the next step... perhaps

Just for the record, I totally 100% disagree with the idea that this is just a training thing, but I've already explained why so I won't go into it.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I think you are misunderstanding my meaning of "tense." When I say it, I don't mean rigid or stiff-bodied at all. I mean "the contraction of a muscle."

Hi Shizentai, I don't think I misunderstood your post, it was quite clear.

- A punch must be 100% relaxed while moving, but 100% tense only in the instant of its strike.

At any instant while you are standing you are in part tense and in part relaxed (yet again the balance thing). It's impossible to stand while being truly 100% relaxed, much less move (save being rolled down a hill or something). There are different muscle groups we can tense and relax independently and to different degrees. I was speaking specifically about the muscles in the hand, armpit and abs. I agree that muscles like your deltoids or neck muscles (for instance) should stay as relaxed as possible throughout. Tensing the hand into a tight fist protects the fingers. Tensing armpit muscles keeps the arm in alignment. Tensing the abs and buttock connects the punch to the hip and thereby the ground since it's what your legs are standing on. That doesn't mean pushing. If you're tense opposing groups before the moment of impact, that's pushing.

Why connect to the ground? Newton's 3rd law: "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

See, as a 109 lb girl, the amount of force I can strike with when I am using nothing but my own weight behind a punch is severely limited due to my body's backward motion with every strike I make. However, if I simply connect my legs to the ground and send my momentum forward, (some people call this "kinetic linking" I think), I can hit with more force. Punch force from a ~150lb man has been measured over a ton per square inch using this method (not a weak punch in my opinion). The "tensing" I was talking about was simply this leg/hip thrust since you have to tense a muscle in order to step in.

I hope that cleared it up, because I think I agree with you on most things and I didn't mean to make it seem otherwise.

I have no argument with Isaac, and agree that "kinetic linking" (nice phrase by the way ) is very important at the point of making contact with your opponent. However there is more than one way to accelerate ones mass forward prior to the point of impact me thinks.

Watch a toddler when he is learning to walk, and he does not appear to push himself forward from the ground up, rather he seems to fall into the movement and then his feet will catch up.

Also, in Karate kumite, gyakuzukis (reverse punches) are more usually performed with the back heel off the floor. We refer to the "cutting in of the front hip" at this stage in order to accelerate the technique forward. Effectively pulling in from the front leg, rather than pushing off the back.

There are no "absolutes" in karate, but there are alternatives and sometimes these are difficult to see - or maybe just not that obvious.

[edit] and of course, all governed by the same Newtonian laws.

The "polar opposites" as Shizentai refers to, do play an important part of you karate training ie; fast, slow, tensed, relaxed etc., but...these are training apparatus. They are ways to train ourselves how to be in total control of our bodies.

Application is the next step... perhaps

Just for the record, I totally 100% disagree with the idea that this is just a training thing, but I've already explained why so I won't go into it.

You may disagree with me and you are entitled to your opinion, but actually I don't think we are too far apart from each other on this one either.

The "polar opposites" should be trained in karate for a reason... so that the principles inherent to them become instinctive / second nature in feeling and ability.

As I say these principles will eventually become subsumed into your karate ultimately allowing your karate to work in concert , not conflict - when it comes to application.

WNM

[bushido_man96]

This kind of "power up from the ground" thinking has more in keeping with boxing than it does with Karate imo.

Don't get me wrong it has its place, but karate is not "singularly" a one hit power house type art.

I don't think Brian was referring to anything "singularly," Michi, but to what the OP was asking. I like this video (link below) by Bas Rutten on the boxing aspect (but I'd just call it the punching aspect) of MMA, and the stance he refers to as different from the boxer's stance, in that he has to keep his legs useful as weapons--and defendable against attack as well. I think that what he says does have its applications to karate.

The URL is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_gq3s3FMsg

Thanks for the link, Joe. It shall come in handy...

WNM, when I talk about punching "from the ground up," it doesn't mean that one is rooted deeply into the ground, lacking mobility. Nor does it mean that every punch is "one-hit wonder."

Although Bas's stance tends to be a bit more flat-footed than what I would use, at about 2:50 in the link above, you can see what I am talking about when I "punch from the ground up." Using the feet to pivot and drive the punches is a big key in developing power, yet one can still stay mobile and evasive. Boxing itself isn't a powerhouse type of art, I would say....just look at the jab, the core punch of Boxing. It isn't used to knock anyone out. Its the strategy shaper of the style. I think that Boxing and Karate might share more here than they do not.

[Sokusen]

I think we are all saying essentially the same thing just in different ways. I would never suggest standing flat footed and rooted to the ground in an attempt to hit someone. That’s why I mentioned rotational power and linear power. I like to think of a strike much like a Bow and Arrow, your Legs and Hips being the Bow and your arm being the arrow. Your Hips have to rotate or load before striking, that load is much like drawing a bow. When the hip comes forward "the release” due to the driving action of the legs, the arm flies out like an arrow. There should only be enough tension in the arm to form the weapon, and enough tension on impact to not break the weapon i.e. the wrist. This all happens in a blink of an eye any longer and you missed your window of opportunity.

[Wa-No-Michi]

This kind of "power up from the ground" thinking has more in keeping with boxing than it does with Karate imo.

Don't get me wrong it has its place, but karate is not "singularly" a one hit power house type art.

I don't think Brian was referring to anything "singularly," Michi, but to what the OP was asking. I like this video (link below) by Bas Rutten on the boxing aspect (but I'd just call it the punching aspect) of MMA, and the stance he refers to as different from the boxer's stance, in that he has to keep his legs useful as weapons--and defendable against attack as well. I think that what he says does have its applications to karate.

The URL is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_gq3s3FMsg

Thanks for the link, Joe. It shall come in handy...

WNM, when I talk about punching "from the ground up," it doesn't mean that one is rooted deeply into the ground, lacking mobility. Nor does it mean that every punch is "one-hit wonder."

Although Bas's stance tends to be a bit more flat-footed than what I would use, at about 2:50 in the link above, you can see what I am talking about when I "punch from the ground up." Using the feet to pivot and drive the punches is a big key in developing power, yet one can still stay mobile and evasive. Boxing itself isn't a powerhouse type of art, I would say....just look at the jab, the core punch of Boxing. It isn't used to knock anyone out. Its the strategy shaper of the style. I think that Boxing and Karate might share more here than they do not.

I have no argument with Mr Rutten either (thank goodness), however I see karate movement as being slightly different to boxing - mainly because of the combined use of the greater variety of techniques that are in karate.

In boxing the only weapons you have are your hands, so the use of movement and its extent is limited to what you are able to do with your hands. Factor into this the facts that these guys are wearing gloves to take the sting out the punch, and they are conditioned to receive these blows - this in turn drives a requirement for the boxer to develop even more powerful punches – and thus the cycle continues.

Martial arts like Karate on the other hand, not only use all of the limbs they use all viable parts of said limbs to make contact with any accessible areas of the opponent, the more vulnerable the better. These can these be used in any combination - in any given direction (as it is not governed so much by the squared or octagonal rings of boxing / MMA).

In Kumite I don't usually work on the basis of trying to stop someone with a singular technique, rather I use renraku (combination techniques).

So... whilst I am agreeing with all here that one should have good Kentic linkage to the floor at the point of impact of each technique used in the combo, it does not need to mean that you have stopped moving ie toward your next technique, which could be a kick for example.

On the point of just how much power one needs to generate, and therefore just how "Kinetically linked" to the floor you need to be, I remember my sensei giving us a pep talk on some of the finer points of our close quarter fighting sets we have called Kihon Kumite. These contain aspects of Atemi Jujutsu (or striking Jujutsu). The stances are very high, and very difficult to generate a lot of power from easily – to the new to them, and uninitiated, they appear quite unstable.

A Junior student who was quite new to them asked him why there wasn’t more power behind them, to which my Sensei answered “because there doesn't need to be”.

Seeing that the student was still not convinced he paired with him and at the point of delivering the strike in question, he proceeded to give the student the slightest of taps in the testicles... This was enough to completely unbalance the 1st Dan and the next thing he knew, he was on the floor looking up at the instructor.

Motto of the story here was you don't have to hit people - a) very hard to and to hurt them and - b) very hard to throw them (mentally I mean), as long as you hit them with the correct technique in the right place the right way.

The latter can then be followed up a rapid succession of techniques – all in the movement my friends. Trust me.

WNM

[Wa-No-Michi]

I am really hoping that Shizentai will continue to contribute here, as her thoughts were right on the money as far as I could see.

Would also be good maybe if Killer could chime in. Particularly after his good thread on breathing.

Who knows, along with the other tradition Karate-ka on this board, we could actually get a "genuine" Karate thread going here.

No offense to the likes of tg and Bushi who's views would always be welcome of course, but they got their own playgrounds have fun in me thinks ?

WNM

[ShoriKid]

I think your looking at power punchers way more than "Boxers" WNM. They do "punches in bunches", one movement feeding the next with their feet constantly in motion. Boxers are not flat footed in most cases and really work to have one strike feed the next. Yes, their weapons are more limited than karate-ka, but good foot work is good foot work if your in a high, mobile stance.

When I'm talking about having a good "root" it's not about working out of zenkutsu. I can be in Shizentai dachi and have a good, "rooted" stance. I'm stable, balanced and can generate all the power I need from anything I do from that stance. Now a lot of power in a punch can be generated in a shift in stance. As I come up from zenkutsu up to shizentai dachi with a reverse punch, I can produce a lot of power off of that transition. The level change, hip movement and momentum all come together there. Nice, relaxed movement between them, with an explosion of energy at the appropriate momemnt in the technique is where the power comes from.

[tallgeese]

No offense taken, Michi.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I think your looking at power punchers way more than "Boxers" WNM. They do "punches in bunches", one movement feeding the next with their feet constantly in motion. Boxers are not flat footed in most cases and really work to have one strike feed the next. Yes, their weapons are more limited than karate-ka, but good foot work is good foot work if your in a high, mobile stance.

Hi Shori,

You are probably right, although I never said that boxers were flat footed??

And agreed their footwork is awesome but its kinda "their" footwork if you know what I mean... Works for them.

I will stand corrected here, but it is my understanding, that the objective of boxing is to "incapacitate" your opponent by striking them with you fists. In the modern forum, that refers to fists quite heavily padded, but nonetheless, they key point is to continuously strike someone (with your hands) to the point they are no longer able to continue.

Whilst this has its merits, it isn't karate IMO.

When I'm talking about having a good "root" it's not about working out of zenkutsu. I can be in Shizentai dachi and have a good, "rooted" stance. I'm stable, balanced and can generate all the power I need from anything I do from that stance. Now a lot of power in a punch can be generated in a shift in stance. As I come up from zenkutsu up to shizentai dachi with a reverse punch, I can produce a lot of power off of that transition. The level change, hip movement and momentum all come together there. Nice, relaxed movement between them, with an explosion of energy at the appropriate momemnt in the technique is where the power comes from.

You mention transition... Now we are getting somewhere..

WNM