Karate & kickboxing

[bushido_man96]

When kickboxing got it's start it was known as full contact karate. Those days the kb champs were all karate champs, kb fighters wore their black belts onto the ring, kickboxing wasn't treated as a seperate martial art like it is now. I wonder how you guys feel about the split between the two? Now kickboxing is pretty much the domain of Muay Thai, itself no longer the martial art it once was with it's own "kata" and traditions. I never really understood why karate & kickboxing weren't still joined as closely as they once were, but I can't help but feel nostalgic (sp?) about the old days.

I think that the style of Western Kickboxing that got its start with the point-based Karate tournaments of the early years here in the states. I think some of them tended to be a bit higher in contact level, and then at some point there was a branch where there was "kickboxing" and "point" tournaments. Joe Lewis was a full-contact guy, as was Bill Wallace, I believe. Chuck Norris remained a point fighter.

Since then, the two have grown in seperate ways, with Kickboxing becoming its own animal, with more of a sport focus towards competition, but any stylist could/can compete in it.

[bushido_man96]

In order to make up the lost revenue I've seen promoters incorporate grappling in the tourneys. The last event I went to the adult grappling division was larger than the adult point sparring division. I'm seeing more & more kid's grappling too. Given the choice between jiujitsu & karate parrents are putting their kids into jiujitsu classes. I see a lot of kid's mma classes opening up.

We need to face reality here, karate is on the decline and has been for years. Kickboxing was once a part of our art, if we desire to see our art revived and brought back to anywhere near it's former status then reincorporating kickboxing into our art is the way to go.

In my experience, if you aren't selling what the people want, then they won't buy.

I don't intend to use monetary terms here, because I don't think making money should be a sole concern of MA training. But, my point is, if someone sees grappling, and wants to learn grappling, then they aren't going to spend their time at a Karate dojo that doesn't teach grappling. If my daughter wants to run track, then I will put her out for track; not basketball, even though she can do plenty of running there.

In the end, I think that these things ebb and flow all the time. A lot of people saw the productivity of BJJ in MMA competition, so many took to it like a duck to water. Now, with the onset of competitors with backgrounds in "traditional" styles, like Georges St. Pierre and Kyokushin, and Lyota Machida with Shotokan, I think people will swing back towards arts like this. Perhaps it shouldn't be this way, but it is one of many different things that influenc MA participation today.

[RW]

Karate is a victim of the implementation of its teachings.

I am a karate guy, by the way.

It is a really complete martial art, but the sparring system really limited it. If katas use knees and elbows, and karate people train countless knee and elbow strikes, why are they prohibited in sparring? Suddenly muay thai capitalizes on that, they call themselves the art of the 8 limbs, etc etc.

Since its conception (or at least its westernization), it has been decidedly non-contact. Isn't shotokai about non sparring until you have a very high belt? How many systems use point based sparring?

This actually helped karate become popular, the # 1 martial art, and also to become the blanket term for any martial art for a long time. Back in the 80's, where karate was seem as mystical. People would see in karate kid this skinny kid practice some KATAS, wax on, wax off and BOOM, he can beat up bullies.

But now things have changed, and MMA and a growing desire to "get down and dirty" raised interest in boxing, muay thai and BJJ.

But think about it, not everyone wants to get the *** kicked out of them. Some people do not want to be hit in the face, or full force with no padding. They just want a work out, learn to defend themselves better, but without getting hurt. That is karate's niche right now.

[RW]

On a side note, isn't kickboxing dying too?

People want to do muay thai. Or "MMA" (which isn't really an art by itself, but gyms advertise that).

Kickboxing itself is not a formalized MA (at least to my knowledge). It used to be basically karate-kick based, but someone, for some reason, decided to change that to muay thai kick-based. Go and try to find a karate-kickboxing school as opposed to a muay thai-kickboxing one...

[Otto]

What a great debate this is.

Rock on, fellas. (Gals, too)

[nzproud]

On a side note, isn't kickboxing dying too?

People want to do muay thai. Or "MMA" (which isn't really an art by itself, but gyms advertise that).

Kickboxing itself is not a formalized MA (at least to my knowledge). It used to be basically karate-kick based, but someone, for some reason, decided to change that to muay thai kick-based. Go and try to find a karate-kickboxing school as opposed to a muay thai-kickboxing one...

it's not dying.. in fact k1 still seems to be very popular and a lot of karate fighters are fighting well in K-1. Semmy Schilt(Ashihara Karate), Glaube Feitosa & Ewerton Teixeira..

[bushido_man96]

So there you go. It isn't gone, it just lives in a different realm, it appears.