Karate & kickboxing

[Wa-No-Michi]

I am Wado Ryu Based and Koku Tora Ryu (Ashihara Karate based - Kancho Ninomiya (Enshin) was one of Kancho Ashihara's senior Shihans).

I teach and am taught bunkai and application of ALL the Kata I/We practice.

In Wado as a Kyu Grade to grade more that once a year at the Dojo I am at is "rushed" My Wado Sensei and ALL Wado KarateKa I know practice and teach Bunkai unlike some styles that I could mention but won't as this will take it away from the topic of the Thread.

Just to be clear, I didn't say Wado karate did not teach application from its Kata, it does, but it doesnt use the process of Bunkai.

None of the senior japanese sensei in any of the major wado groups that I have trained with have used this process. More typically they use "Kaisetsu" which is a term that implies a "physical commentary" on a technique as it appears in a kata - unmodified.

The process of ohyo / application is done in stages through paired kata and then eventually Jiyu kumite.

Different means to the same end.

WNM

PS I have a bit of a problem with the words Wado Based!!!! Once you change something it ceases to be what it was in the first place... doesn't it?

But that's another old Chestnut or "kuri" isn't it Dobbersky

[Kuma]

I doubt "style" has less to do with it than "training." If you want to fight full contact, train full contact.

99% of fighters I know don't. It's easy to say that, but the reality is that injuries happen frequently, and they sideline you from training. If you want to fight full contact you train smart.

Either way, NOBODY seems to grasp onto what I'm saying. This isn't a kickboxing is better than karate thread for God's sake, it's a Karate needs kickboxing to survive thread. Not even full contact kickboxing, semicontact would be just fine...

What I mean is if you want to fight full contact, you're going to have to train for it. Which means sparring, padwork, and the whole nine yards that go with it. If you're not interested in fighting full contact, then you don't need to train that way. If you want to be able to compete in that area though, you need to train like others do in that arena so you can hang. In this instance, it's less the style you do and more the training methods you use. Just to clarify.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Ok I may be being a bit vague here... Are we just talking competition fighting here, be that mma, ufc, kd, wkf etc.etc., or are we talking about the bigger meaning of the word Karate?

Just so I can be clear, I found this, is this the type of stuff you are referring to IronFist?

If not can you point me in the right direction?

WNM

[IronFistKempo]

So much that I want to reply too that quoting is out of the question.

1st off on wado-ryu. I know the name was changed but I never studied wado, I do not mean what I said as a slant at all to the art tho. There are tons of Wado schools around my location, & none of them teach any aplication at all. My Style's kata system is quite different, but we use the heian & tekki katas along with unsu & kusanku all post blac belt. Students are required to create their own katas with bunkai before bb. the theory is that by creating their own katas they learn the workings of the technique on a more personal level. However, When the wado guys see us running a kata they're familiar withyet running with bunkai they want to learn it.

2ndly, the youtube clip is some oldschool point style and a good example of why early kickboxers were karate champs

3rdly I'm not talking about one style being better than the other, kickboxing better than point stye, or anything else. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT KARATE HAS BEEN ON THE DECLINE FOR A WHILLE AND IT'S BECAUSE THE GENERAL POPULATION WHO DOESN'T TRAIN KARATE BELIEVES IT DOESN'T WORK. THE SOLUTION TO THAT IS TO BRING KICKBOXING BACK INTO OUR STYLE BECAUSE KICKBOXING BRINGS PEOPLE IN THE DOOR. THOSE PEOPLE THEN LEARN KARATE. KB IS AN OUTGROTH OF KARATE & SHOULD BE PUT IN SEMICONTACT FORM INTO THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT. THE RULES ARE SIMILIAR ENOUGH TO POINT SPARRING THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. HOWEVER THE GAIN TO US IS THAT OUR ONCE HIGHLY RESPECTED ART WILL REBOUND AS THE OUTSIDE WORLD BECOMES INTERESTED IN US AGAIN, AND DOJO'S WON'T BE GOING OUT OF BUSINESS OR HAVING TO HIRE KICKBOXING INSTRUCTORS.

4thly, I'm not trying to talk bad about you guys. I have respect for all of you and consider the practioner of karate, be it shotokan, wado, goju, etc... to be part of an extended family. I'm concerned about our art. I advertise as "Kempo, Kickboxing, MMA" I used to advertise karate but ppl saw it & turned away, believing there is no way a karate based program could ever work. they don't know what kempo is, so it doesn't turn them away. PPl judge martial arts by the fighters they put out, since all they see of karate is point style it makes us look bad, they don't see it as fighting. It DOESNT MATTER THAT THERE IS MORE TO KARATE THAN COMPETITIVE FIGHTING IF WE CAN'T TEACH IT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO STUDENTS. We all know that you can't teach real karate to a 5 yr old, but how many of your dojo's are kept open soley on the basis of your kid's class??

[Wa-No-Michi]

So much that I want to reply too that quoting is out of the question.

1st off on wado-ryu. I know the name was changed but I never studied wado

The name has never changed it was originally named Wado-ryu as practiced by the Wado-kai and still is.

I do not mean what I said as a slant at all to the art tho. There are tons of Wado schools around my location, & none of them teach any aplication at all. My Style's kata system is quite different, but we use the heian & tekki katas along with unsu & kusanku all post blac belt. Students are required to create their own katas with bunkai before bb. the theory is that by creating their own katas they learn the workings of the technique on a more personal level. However, When the wado guys see us running a kata they're familiar withyet running with bunkai they want to learn it.

As I say, you can not legilsate for rubbish karate being taught, irrespective of style or location.

But that doesn't mean the style is weak, it means you have some "naff" Wado schools in your area.

2ndly, the youtube clip is some oldschool point style and a good example of why early kickboxers were karate champs

Can you post up a link to something more current?

3rdly I'm not talking about one style being better than the other, kickboxing better than point stye, or anything else. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT KARATE HAS BEEN ON THE DECLINE FOR A WHILLE AND IT'S BECAUSE THE GENERAL POPULATION WHO DOESN'T TRAIN KARATE BELIEVES IT DOESN'T WORK. THE SOLUTION TO THAT IS TO BRING KICKBOXING BACK INTO OUR STYLE BECAUSE KICKBOXING BRINGS PEOPLE IN THE DOOR. THOSE PEOPLE THEN LEARN KARATE. KB IS AN OUTGROTH OF KARATE & SHOULD BE PUT IN SEMICONTACT FORM INTO THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT. THE RULES ARE SIMILIAR ENOUGH TO POINT SPARRING THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM. HOWEVER THE GAIN TO US IS THAT OUR ONCE HIGHLY RESPECTED ART WILL REBOUND AS THE OUTSIDE WORLD BECOMES INTERESTED IN US AGAIN, AND DOJO'S WON'T BE GOING OUT OF BUSINESS OR HAVING TO HIRE KICKBOXING INSTRUCTORS.

4thly, I'm not trying to talk bad about you guys. I have respect for all of you and consider the practioner of karate, be it shotokan, wado, goju, etc... to be part of an extended family. I'm concerned about our art. I advertise as "Kempo, Kickboxing, MMA" I used to advertise karate but ppl saw it & turned away, believing there is no way a karate based program could ever work. they don't know what kempo is, so it doesn't turn them away. PPl judge martial arts by the fighters they put out, since all they see of karate is point style it makes us look bad, they don't see it as fighting. It DOESNT MATTER THAT THERE IS MORE TO KARATE THAN COMPETITIVE FIGHTING IF WE CAN'T TEACH IT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO STUDENTS. We all know that you can't teach real karate to a 5 yr old, but how many of your dojo's are kept open soley on the basis of your kid's class??

In my experience traditional Karate is on the up, or it is here at least in the UK, and not just the kids classes.

BTW, I think you can start to teach kids karate beyond kicking and punching, but my group doesn't tend to take them until age 7.

IronFist, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you feel that how your club/s assoc. currently brands its self doesn't stand up to the competition. You have branding issue as it were.

FWIW (and I am a branding professional by trade), the best message you can deliver is one of honesty, passion and knowledge.

Perhaps you should be true to what you believe in and that’s Kickboxing and promote it as that.

Maybe in the states you can get away with calling it Karate when it isn’t... and maybe that’s the key.... Don’t!!

Either way, I wish you luck with your endeavours.

WNM.

[tallgeese]

It sounds more like a marketing issue than anything else. You could, as you have, use the MMA moniker to draw in more people. Still, you're going to have issues on your hands if you're teaching a form of karate under a different name, due to the fact that people will eventually get the "bait and switch". I'm not suggestion that this is the case with you school IronFist. I'm just saying it's easy to get caught up in marketing and get your message lost.

You have to look at your instructor staff and realistically evaluate their ability to teach a MMA class or kickboxing class. You also have to realize that people showing up for those will be less likly to fill the rolls of your karate, or kempo, class than people who would come in to study one of the disciplines.

I think that using Kempo on your signage is easier than kb or mma. Most people won't know the difference. Still, I'm assuming that you guys are actually a kempo based art at some point so you're not stepping on anyones toes.

Personally, I think the others are right. It's a training issue, not an art issue. It's also based on what you're wanting to do with your art. This will define it's training prinicples and methods. If your goal is sd, the training tactics employed will look much differnt than if it's point fighting, and they will look differnt than if your training for some form of kb. So will the finished product. That dosn't mean that you can't our shouldn't let proven methods of training for kb or mma seep into sd training. In fact, I'd highly recommend it. It just means that the training will be set up slightly differently for each.

Above all, the background mindset prep should be radically altered between each. More than anthing, this and use of force levels will seperate the respective outgrowths of any school.

Personally, and this is only to me that this applies others mileage might vary, I don't care what students want to learn or not. I teach what I teach, if they train with me, great if not, oh well.

It's nice to have a varied background, this lets you focus on different aspects of ma's. It's one of the beauties of cross training. But I'd like to think that my attitude would be similar could I not move from focus to focus.

Then again, I train in a small, non commercial setting so I don't have to worry about keeping doors open and lights on. I have to imagine that it would be harder to keep this posture if I had to concern myself with those things.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi tg, we are on the same wavelength, but it is more of a branding issue over marketing, as you can not succesfully market yourself if you don't know what you are to start with.

When you have your brand, then you can market it.

(I usually charge people mega bucks for this sort of advice).

WNM

[tallgeese]

I see what you're saying, Michi.

Thanks for not billing us

[Kuma]

Maybe I'm just not getting it because in Kyokushin we already have all the same elements as kickboxing. I think most other combat sports are on the decline due to the popularity of MMA and the UFC, especially boxing.

Nowadays most people are interested in the more full contact type stuff it seems, so naturally organizations that primarily do point fighting are not going to be quite as popular. Kyokushin used to be very popular, died down somewhat, now it seems to be on a slight rise again so I really can't say we're being affected too too much (though KK is far more popular overseas than it is in the US, that's for sure).

[Dobbersky]

I am Wado Ryu Based and Koku Tora Ryu (Ashihara Karate based - Kancho Ninomiya (Enshin) was one of Kancho Ashihara's senior Shihans).

I teach and am taught Bunkai and application of ALL the Kata I/We practice.

In Wado as a Kyu Grade to grade more that once a year at the Dojo I am at is "rushed" My Wado Sensei and ALL Wado KarateKa I know practice and teach Bunkai unlike some styles that I could mention but won't as this will take it away from the topic of the Thread.

Just to be clear, I didn't say Wado karate did not teach application from its Kata, it does, but it doesn’t use the process of Bunkai.

None of the senior Japanese sensei in any of the major Wado groups that I have trained with has used this process. More typically they use "Kaisetsu" which is a term that implies a "physical commentary" on a technique as it appears in a kata - unmodified.

The process of Oyho / application is done in stages through paired kata and then eventually Jiyu kumite.

Different means to the same end.

WNM

PS I have a bit of a problem with the words Wado Based!!!! Once you change something it ceases to be what it was in the first place... doesn't it?

But that's another old Chestnut or "Kuri" isn't it Dobbersky

I know what you mean Wa-No-Michi-san. I always fully respect and appreciate your thoughts and views. It is a pleasure to openly and respectfully discuss the Karate issues with you.

Here I am trying to "defend" Wado Ryu and getting chastised already, lol.

And I like Chestnuts lol.

I suppose we could say that Wado Ryu is Jujitsu and/or Shotokan Karate Based - its just an expression. If we had purists we'd all still be studying Shuri-te, Naha-te or Tomari-te or even Kode-te. OSU!!!!

I won't defend my statement about being Wado 'based' as it is a statement of Fact. My Wado Sensei is ok with it so that's makes me happy. I have done the same as Mushashi and studied with various schools and formulated my own hybrid. It is still Karate and will remain so.

I suppose this is why Sosai Oyama formulated Kyokushin and knockdown karate because of the issues he was having with the JKA etc.

BTW

Karate IS a complete martial Art, applications/bunkai/kaisetsu or whatever it is called in any particular Dojo is what MAKES karate what it is. In Kickboxing we have "Self Defence" combinations etc but if we look at them in detail we could say "that's move 'such-and-such' out of XYZ kata. I can say this about Krav Maga techniques I've seem many of their defences out of the Pinan/Heian Kata etc.

OSU!!!