Karate & kickboxing

[IronFistKempo]

imho, it doesnt matter... A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. if I kicked someone in the face would I say that was from karate? or that it was from kickboxing?? doesnt matter and makes no difference... its a kick. nothing else.

In many ways yes, & in some ways no. Kickboxing & karate use the same techniques, but the approach is different. Kickboxing, even in semi-contact, is results oriented much more so than point sparring.

I've seen numerous ppl when point sparring matches by bouncing on one foot with their other foot held in the air, repeatedly flipping it in the air until it comes close enough to the other's head for a score. That's the way they learn to use their technique in a confrontation, & it's a waste of a kick. You're not going to damage anyone with it, you're just gonna knock yourself off balance & be wide open for a counter punch.

It does matter in the grand scheme of things. It matters how karate is percieved by the outside world because our students come from the outside world. The more ppl think our style is worthless the less ppl come in the door. The more karate dojos close for good. It'll be a long slow dieing off of a truely great art.

[IronFistKempo]

I don't know; it seems like the problem is kids, not karate. 20 years from now, everyone will think MMA is a joke because the only people who do it are toddlers.

No, the reason why only kids are doing karate is because karate is looked at as a kids game.

Kid's have been boxing for a lot longer than 20 years, and no one said boxing was a joke because of it. Boxing is still respected as a fighting style & looked at as a very important tool in MMA.

[Throwdown0850]

imho, it doesnt matter... A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. if I kicked someone in the face would I say that was from karate? or that it was from kickboxing?? doesnt matter and makes no difference... its a kick. nothing else.

In many ways yes, & in some ways no. Kickboxing & karate use the same techniques, but the approach is different. Kickboxing, even in semi-contact, is results oriented much more so than point sparring.

I've seen numerous ppl when point sparring matches by bouncing on one foot with their other foot held in the air, repeatedly flipping it in the air until it comes close enough to the other's head for a score. That's the way they learn to use their technique in a confrontation, & it's a waste of a kick. You're not going to damage anyone with it, you're just gonna knock yourself off balance & be wide open for a counter punch.

It does matter in the grand scheme of things. It matters how karate is percieved by the outside world because our students come from the outside world. The more ppl think our style is worthless the less ppl come in the door. The more karate dojos close for good. It'll be a long slow dieing off of a truely great art.

1, I didnt debate anything about the differences in karate & kickboxing when it comes to point sparring.. and the sooner people just realize a round house is just a roundhouse or a snap kick is a snap kick, the sooner they can practice just that instead of worrying which style it comes from. I go to my class to learn to fight, if it came from kickboxing? fine. If it came from karate? fine. as long as it works and is effective because that is why we are there at the school. to learn to fight.

[IronFistKempo]

1, I didnt debate anything about the differences in karate & kickboxing when it comes to point sparring.. and the sooner people just realize a round house is just a roundhouse or a snap kick is a snap kick, the sooner they can practice just that instead of worrying which style it comes from. I go to my class to learn to fight, if it came from kickboxing? fine. If it came from karate? fine. as long as it works and is effective because that is why we are there at the school. to learn to fight.

I agree with you on that 100%. And in truth most if not all kickboxing techniques come from karate. Muay Thai aside there is no difference, they are the same darn thing. However, How many ppl like you, going to learn to fight, pass right by your dojo & go to the local kickboxing gym? My guess is the majority of them.

And as someone who wants to learn to fight, wouldn't you rather have a more realistic competition in a tournament?

[Throwdown0850]

I agree with you on that 100%. And in truth most if not all kickboxing techniques come from karate. Muay Thai aside there is no difference, they are the same darn thing. However, How many ppl like you, going to learn to fight, pass right by your dojo & go to the local kickboxing gym? My guess is the majority of them.

And as someone who wants to learn to fight, wouldn't you rather have a more realistic competition in a tournament?

if you look at the styles I am studying, one of them is Enshin Karate, knockdown style tournament just like kyokushin, cant get more full contact than full contact now can you?? quite realistic in a sense.... but I dont even think tournaments are that realistic imo. even knockdown or UFC.. I am now studying a Filipino martial art called Panantukan that has really opened my eyes on what I know and what I can actually use. and why should it matter if they pass your dojo to go to a kickboxing gym? if they want to. LET them? im not going to try and talk somebody into joining a certain martial art.

Also, if the kickboxing coach wanted to go full contact and do realistic scenarios then great. if a Karate instructor wants to do the same exact thing. great. it doesnt matter my friend. its all about what works. not the style.

[IronFistKempo]

Again Throwdown, we disagree on very little. And I salute you for studing enshin, very strong stuff. Ive done KD fighting & it was brutal.

It does matter if they pass your dojo, cuz if enough ppl do that then your dojo will close. And I agree, The UFC itself isn't a street fight, I knew of a guy who attempted a triangle choke on a friend of mine, got his head split open cuz my friend slamed him on the pavement as the guy was setting up the choke. Altho I should mention my friend studied judo for many years was quite familiar with the triangle, an untrained person wouldn't have known what to do.

However, my point is what ppl percieve, they see the UFC as the ultimate proving ground for martial arts. My concern isn't for myself or my dojo. Our business is doing very well, as MMA increases our success increases. My concern is for OUR art. Karate is suffering, I think the re-implimation of Kickboxing could save it.

As I stated earlier, a point fighter could easily become a kickboxer, it'll take a little time to learn to fight under different rules, but the two sports are very closely related. However, to the outsider, the one who's going to sign up & pay your bills, Point style looks like a joke & kickboxing looks like a fight.

[Kuma]

I doubt "style" has less to do with it than "training." If you want to fight full contact, train full contact.

[IronFistKempo]

I doubt "style" has less to do with it than "training." If you want to fight full contact, train full contact.

99% of fighters I know don't. It's easy to say that, but the reality is that injuries happen frequently, and they sideline you from training. If you want to fight full contact you train smart.

Either way, NOBODY seems to grasp onto what I'm saying. This isn't a kickboxing is better than karate thread for God's sake, it's a Karate needs kickboxing to survive thread. Not even full contact kickboxing, semicontact would be just fine...

[Wa-No-Michi]

  Just realized I used the wrong quote. 

However, Most dojo's I observe (in my area mostly wado-ryu) don't use bunkai or oyo in their kata at all. I've taught dozens of wado-ryu black belts the bunkai to heian shodan because they never learned it at their home dojo.

I don't know where you hail from IronFist, I guess somewhere in the US, but TBH there is rubbish taught in all styles of Karate around the world - it is not exclusive to Wado or North America.

I don't want to get into how I feel Wado “should” be taught here, but a knowledgeable person like your self will know of course that Wado does NOT have Heian katas , or for that matter bunkai (In the same way at least that say Shotokan karate does for example). It is a commonly held misconception amongst poorly informed Wado-ka that it should, but in fact Ohtsuka not only changed the name of the Katas to Pinans, he also changed the functionality / purpose to train in them.

However the Wado black belts that you are referring to probably don't have access to instructors who truly understand the various layers of paired katas that wado has, in order to extrapolate the practical application of their karate.  This is a process that has a fairly complex multifaceted pedagogy behind it, and is very functional - if you don’t train in good Wado with a knowledgeable instructor, you haven't a hope of trying to understand this. Therefore the only avenue open to these guys is to look to other styles to connect the dots.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I feel only at a very basic level is karate just kicking and punching. The modern competition circuit has bought about competition fighting, to an extent it does not matter what label your style has stuck on it. If it works it works, but competition is only one small facet of karate.

TBH I don't think Karate needs kickboxing to survive, I think it needs quality instructors who understand the nuts and bolts of their art and in turn inspire and correctly educate students.

WNM

[Dobbersky]

I am Wado Ryu Based and Koku Tora Ryu (Ashihara Karate based - Kancho Ninomiya (Enshin) was one of Kancho Ashihara's senior Shihans).

I teach and am taught bunkai and application of ALL the Kata I/We practice.

In Wado as a Kyu Grade to grade more that once a year at the Dojo I am at is "rushed" My Wado Sensei and ALL Wado KarateKa I know practice and teach Bunkai unlike some styles that I could mention but won't as this will take it away from the topic of the Thread.

In Koku Tora Ryu, We follow knockdown full contact Karate so it is more "Street" focused, but I would not call it kickboxing, I would call it Jissen Karate though!

Osu!!!