Karate & kickboxing

[IronFistKempo]

When kickboxing got it's start it was known as full contact karate. Those days the kb champs were all karate champs, kb fighters wore their black belts onto the ring, kickboxing wasn't treated as a seperate martial art like it is now. I wonder how you guys feel about the split between the two? Now kickboxing is pretty much the domain of Muay Thai, itself no longer the martial art it once was with it's own "kata" and traditions. I never really understood why karate & kickboxing weren't still joined as closely as they once were, but I can't help but feel nostalgic (sp?) about the old days.

[Dobbersky]

I think that, as with all "styles", Kick Boxing began to get 'outside' influences and it began to 'evolve'. We look at Modern Kick Boxing and we have influences from the likes of

Karate

Muay Thai

Tae Kwan Do

Savate

Western Boxing

TaeBo

Boxercise etc.

I understand where you’re coming from but if we look down the line at Kick Boxing in another 30 years it will look different to what it is now and exponents from this era will be saying the same as us well after we have retired. I am sure the Classical Karateka said the same about Traditional Karateka who eventually said the same about Modern Karateka

OSU!!!

[Wa-No-Michi]

Kickboxing is kickboxing and Karate is karate.

To suggest that they are the same, or were ever the same, is like suggesting that wrestling is the same as Aikido. Sure they are connected and arguably there are different levels of functionality - not one supperior to another.. but they are different.

Kick Boxing - Kick and Box ?

Wrestle - ok,

Aikido - to harmonise ones spirit/will/energy with that of your opponent, aiki = principle of momentarily pushing against but, then yeilding and allowing ones opponent to fall into a space you vacate? Harmonising on a spiritual and mental level, achieving "mushin" mind of no mind?... Training for an "indomitable spirit".

I have never trained in wrestling club, but I bet the end results of the training are the same sort of qualities (we are all human after all) but the way they get there is different.

Different means - same end perhaps, and different vibes picked up along the way?

WNM

ps. I have to say, I have dreaded this question, as it's done the round on many other forums with devastating effect. Let’s see what it does here, although I am not sure I hold out much hope.

[IronFistKempo]

As I stated earlier, kickboxing was born from karate. That's why it was known early on as full contact karate. The early kickboxing fights were sanctioned by the professional karate association. Kickboxing uses the same techniques & target areas as does karate point sparring.

I wonder how familliar you are with the history of karate... Karate is an okinawan martial art, in Okinawa karate fighting consist of two main types, kyokushin style bare knuckle full contact, & bogu kumite, which is like a hybrid of kickboxing & MMA. In bogu fighters wear either kickboxing or kendo gear & go full contact with low kicks, knees, take downs, & submissions.

The okinawan karate came from shaolin kempo/chaun fa/Kung fu. The fighting style of which is sanshou. A form of kickboxing using takedowns, low kicks, and knees.

Kickboxing is kickboxing and Karate is karate.

To suggest that they are the same, or were ever the same, is like suggesting that wrestling is the same as Aikido. Sure they are connected and arguably there are different levels of functionality - not one supperior to another.. but they are different.

Kick Boxing - Kick and Box ?

Wrestle - ok,

Aikido - to harmonise ones spirit/will/energy with that of your opponent, aiki = principle of momentarily pushing against but, then yeilding and allowing ones opponent to fall into a space you vacate? Harmonising on a spiritual and mental level, achieving "mushin" mind of no mind?... Training for an "indomitable spirit".

I have never trained in wrestling club, but I bet the end results of the training are the same sort of qualities (we are all human after all) but the way they get there is different.

Different means - same end perhaps, and different vibes picked up along the way?

WNM

ps. I have to say, I have dreaded this question, as it's done the round on many other forums with devastating effect. Let’s see what it does here, although I am not sure I hold out much hope.

[Wa-No-Michi]

As I stated earlier, kickboxing was born from karate.

Thats American Kickboxing then?

And yes, thanks for the concern, but I am fairly well versed on the History of Okinawan karate, but cheers anyway.

I just knew this was heading this way...

WNM

[Wa-No-Michi]

Probably , the key difference though is the use of Kata; its function and application within the pedagogy of the system.

WNM

[IronFistKempo]

Probably , the key difference though is the use of Kata; its function and application within the pedagogy of the system.

WNM

American full contact as well as international / low kick were born from karate. Savate pre existed this obviously but was then & is now fairly obscure. B4 the term kickboxing was popularized Muay Thai was known as Thai karate. Sanshou (Chinese) kickboxing was born of kung fu.

I do not mean to offend, but to know the history of karate you should know that kickboxing is not diferent from karate, no diferent than is point sparring. Neither use the most efective attacks of karate (vital point striking, etc).

I understand this can be a sensitive topic, but it is one that should be addressed. How many adult students now take up karate as opposed to learning a style of kickboxing? In my years of experience karate is viewed by the outside world as a kid's activity. I've seen several dojo's bring in Muay Thai instructors for their adults class as karate no longer brings ppl in. Why? Doesn't karate use kicks & punches & knees? Why should a karate instructor have to hire a kickboxing instructor? That to me is offensive. I see it all over the place, the dojo owner teaches a kids class & then leaves so the MT & BJJ guys take over.

Our style is dieing, being killed by a sport that we had a HUGE part in creating.

I quit using the term karate years ago, it was only then that my adults class really took off. I've made a life study out of the history & culture of karate yet inorder to stay in business I have to teach it as ryukyu kempo & never mention the word karate.

It is sad in my opion. Very very sad.

[Throwdown0850]

imho, it doesnt matter... A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. if I kicked someone in the face would I say that was from karate? or that it was from kickboxing?? doesnt matter and makes no difference... its a kick. nothing else.

[IronFistKempo]

Just realized I used the wrong quote.

However, Most dojo's I observe (in my area mostly wado-ryu) don't use bunkai or oyo in their kata at all. I've taught dozens of wado-ryu black belts the bunkai to heian shodan because they never learned it at their home dojo.

Also, wrestling is nothing like aikido. Not at all as close to each other as are karate & kickboxing.

I go to a lot of tournaments, as a spectator sometimes, a trainer as other, and sometimes I'm just working it. I've seen the steady decline in numbers of adult competitors over the years. In order to make up the lost revenue I've seen promoters incorporate grappling in the tourneys. The last event I went to the adult grappling division was larger than the adult point sparring division. I'm seeing more & more kid's grappling too. Given the choice between jiujitsu & karate parrents are putting their kids into jiujitsu classes. I see a lot of kid's mma classes opening up.

We need to face reality here, karate is on the decline and has been for years. Kickboxing was once a part of our art, if we desire to see our art revived and brought back to anywhere near it's former status then reincorporating kickboxing into our art is the way to go.

Kickboxing also doesn't have to be full contact. In the kickboxing world semi-contact is becoming more & more common place.

It's a different world now, MMA has changed the way the general population looks at martial arts. Martial arts are a wonderful way to self descovery & improvement, but they are also fighting styles. If they weren't then we wouldn't kick & punch. No one wants to learn a fighting style widely considered not to work.

No one ever said kickboxing doesn't work, and no one ever will. We created it, we need to own it. This doesn't really affect me, I put out kickboxers and mma fighters regularly, but I'm in the vast minority here. Any karate instructor could train a kickboxer, but until it's reintroduced into the tournament circuits it'll remain an entity seperate from karate.

[JusticeZero]

I don't know; it seems like the problem is kids, not karate. 20 years from now, everyone will think MMA is a joke because the only people who do it are toddlers.