How Deeply Do You Study Your Art?

[Sokusen]

So several questions were brought up in another thread about the value of conditioning, which led me to ask the question, How far/deeply do people study there art? I study Uechi which has several open handed strikes; in fact you could argue the style has no sekin (closed fist punch). I think it's safe to say most Karate styles have open handed strikes in there system. So is it enough to just study the techniques of a particular style without being able to effectively use the weapons that are taught? Or if you are going to take the time to learn these techniques should you also take the time to condition the weapon so it's effective? What’s the point of learning a shoken or a nukite or a bushkin strike if you can never use it? Are you really studying your style of MA if you are unable to use the strikes associated to the kata? More of a philosophical question with no right or wrong answer, so let the comments fly. By the way please ignore any spelling of Japanese words I can barley spell in English.

[IronFistKempo]

On the topic of conditioning, it's not just about the weapon itself, but the value of whole body conditioning & brutally hard work. There is a lot that is to be gained by teaching yourself to push past pain & fatigue. Forcing yourself to go for one more round on the bag when your hands are so sore that they've gone numb or go for one more rep on the bench when your arms already feel like jello. In many ways that's the true value of conditioning, yes you are physically stronger & tuffer than most, yes your knuckles are hardened & can smash through what ever's infront of you, but mentally you're stronger too. Once you lose the fear of pain you become much more capable of success, in the ring, in the dojo, & really in life in general.

PS, I understand, I can't spell worth a damn in any language.

[bushido_man96]

I think that one can study their art to the fullest extent without having to delve into extreme levels of full-body conditioning. The human body is fairly resilient as it is, and proper technique can help to alleviate as many injuries as conditioning can. In fact, I would think that a body tool that has been conditioned to the point of losing feeling or sensation can lend itself to less than favorable technique, because you don't have to worry about hitting wrong; just hitting. One could also loose efficiency in this manner, because damage is what one may be seeking, instead of damage through proper technique.

That could be a stretch to an extreme, but it is worth considering.

I think that a natural and acceptable amount of conditioning can take place through the natural course of training. Punching the bags, moderate levels of contact sparring, and the like can help to condition the body to the point that it needs to be.

Now, the other end of the spectrum is to ask to what extreme do you want to be conditioned? Do you want to be able to kick through 3 or 4 boards with your big toe? Is it necessary to have gnarled and calloused knuckles in order to be an effective puncher? Do I need to kick a bannana tree until it falls over (a la Van Damme in Kickboxer)? Is it necessary to be able to break 2 boards with a spear hand strike, when the likely target area for such a strike is the soft area of the throat or eyes?

Each of these questions will be answered by the individual practitioner, and by what that practitioner's wants, needs, and goals might be.

In the end, I don't think that the level of body conditioning determines the depth to which one has studied their respective art(s). Grapplers probably don't have much use for punching a makiwara, but to say that they don't have a level of "forged spirit" isn't fair to them, in my mind. Forging the spirit can be developed in many ways, from body conditioning, to physical exertion, to being placed in heightened adrenal scenarios, and the list goes on and on.

Their are other things to consider when looking into body conditioning, as well, like career choices. One of the masters at our TKD headquarter school is a doctor by profession, so when he tests, the GM changes his board break requirements so that he breaks with elbow strikes as opposed to palm heel strikes or punches with his hands. The risk he runs in being out of work is just to great for him to risk that kind of conditioning. But, that doesn't have to mean that it puts a limit on how far he can go in the arts, either.

Sorry for the ramble...I got a bit long-winded. I anxiously await the opinions and thoughts of others.

[Kuma]

I think a lot of it boils down to what are you really studying your art for? If there are several people and one does it for sport, one for art, one for fitness, and one as combative training, each one may in fact be studying their art in a different manner. Remember, karate is a personal endeavor no matter how you look at it.

To give a brief insight into my own training, I'm in law enforcement so my training may be different from the tournament type guy or the "just for fun" person. I prefer body conditioning but not to an extreme, as there are many other weapons out there to strike somebody that I don't need to work on conditioning to use effectively (palms, hammer fists, elbows, knees, etc.). I also need to focus more on locking and holding techniques as well as weapons disarms, wrestling, etc.

Thrusting nukites into vital areas when I'm just arresting some drunk goofball might be looked down on a bit when I go to court, hence why I don't train very often with them. I definitely learn a few tricks to really end the fight if lethal force is called for, but since I'll rarely use those more of mine is softening-up strikes to effect an arrest.

Compare that to how I used to train, more as a kickboxer. Quite a difference from then, and a few years from now I might even be training more differently than I am now. Karate is what you make of it, plain and simple.

[tallgeese]

I do think that you should undertake a highly detailed study of your art. This includes all the strikes, particulars, ect.

However, I don't think a system designed for sd should have stuff in it that's not going to be effective at some level. Now, if you're not in ma's for sd, then by all means, study and practice whatever you want. I'm not exactly sure what the strikes are that you've mentioned in the OP, so I'm not sure if we utilize them at all (I'm a plain english guy- sorry).

I have the same professinal concerns as Kuma, so my training tends to be adaptable to what I need to do at work. I still think that those things that are often outside of day to day use of force for cops should be worked. So, eye gouges, groin kicks, throat strikes and grabbing, ect. need to be practiced, just because you never know. however, with limited training time, those tools might take a backseat to others that you'd use more often.

As to the conditioning aspect, I'm pretty much with bushido man on his views on the subject. Most of the conditioning that you will need should occur as part of a training regimine.

[JusticeZero]

Some training just won't help the one practising it directly. That doesn't mean it's useless to learn it. Furthermore, it is silly to directly equate conditioning with training, as well as it is to assert that more conditioning is a pure good.

I don't condition my fists and I don't ask my students to; they all have or aspire to desk jobs. They don't need their hands to be huge, calloused, and turned into bludgeoning implements. Sure, we have a nice lead for a back fist, but I just have no cause to harden that tool.

My palm is tough enough from walking and jumping on it, i'm happy to limit myself to it and my wrist; furthermore, I do not spend any extra time conditioning my palms than I receive from striking practice and footwork practice. I just don't have need for it.

That doesn't mean I am being less "pure" in my training, though arguably i'm following the self defence philosophies better by doing so by avoiding telltale calluses, it just means that i'd rather be a whole person than just a walking weapon. If someday the world falls apart and becomes some Mad Max-ian dystopia, then I have learned how I can condition my hands thusly, and I have explained it to my students (along with my comments that it is in this modern age pointless).

[Sokusen]

tallgeese here is a quick deffinition of different open handed strikes. If you go on you tube you can find Shinjo demonstrating all of these strikes (to a bit of an extreem).

Shoken = single knuckle punch.

Nukite = spear hand, striking surface is the tip of the fingers

Boshiken = looks like a palm heal strike but the striking surface is the knuckle of the thumb

Koken = Cranes Beak/ cupped hand, striking surface is the tip of the fingers

All of these strikes can be used in soft tissue areas (mainly the throat) with little to no conditioning. With conditioning strikes like the shoken can be devastating to the back of the neck or the solar plexus. Hit someone with a conditioned boshiken under the chin or in the temple and they will not like it. Now hitting someone with a closed fist with enough power will produce the same result. But what if you are unable to produce enough power to get the knock out blow? I think this is why these strikes were developed, so that someone of lesser statue has the ability to deliver a blow with devastating results. This is one of the many beauties of MA, the ability to give what appears to be a physically weaker opponent an advantage. So if you ignore that portion of your style are you truly studying your style? I’ve heard in my dojo a few times from different students of how they would never use this strike or that strike due to the lack of conditioning and it’s just not practical. Which is fine I respect that. Times are different now then when these arts were developed, plus we live in a different culture from where it was developed. But then I ask (to myself) why study Uechi? Why not a different MA like boxing that doesn’t utilize weapons you can’t use?

Now I am not talking about extreme conditioning where you stand around and beat each other with sticks, or punch a tree. But I do hit pads with these strikes, and I do enjoy kicking a tire, what can I say I like the feel of it. When I first started to do it, it sucked. But a little bit ever class and I have gained confidence in using a shoken or a boshiken in other areas then just the throat, and with that I have gained a deeper understanding of why these strikes were developed in the first place.

[Sokusen]

Zero Justice,

I would argue that you do do conditioning. Your walking and jumping on your palms plus the pad work have conditioned your palms to where you can strike effectively and with confidence. That’s all I’m talking about. I’m not talking about turning your hands into bludgeoning instruments of death and destruction; I agree we live in a different world where there is no need for that. Karate is filled with kata (which I love, not dissing kata here) that implements many open handed strikes, at least in Uechi. But if you never practice those strikes be it on a pad or a Makiwara. Then why learn them? If you are only striking air and never gain the confidence in what your style is teaching you then can you truly say you are studying a particular style of MA?

[JusticeZero]

That seems to be a different concern; are you then annoyed with people practicing only hitting air, then? Because I don't believe even the local Taijiquan studio advocates that, and it's not clear that they are exceptionally martial in their focus.

[tallgeese]

I can't say that I use any of the listed strikes. Thanks for the breakdown, however, that is much easier for knuckledraggers like me to follow .

There's just nothing there that can't be done with a less exotic strike, one that probibly has less chance of injury to yourself. Anytime you start using fingers as force multiplier then you start risking having them broken, torqued, ect.

I do study my art in it's totality, even the more tertiary skill, it's just the art I study dosn't employ these strikes. It's complex enough a skill set already without the use of tools that either risk injury to practitioner without conditioning, or take up a niche that can be filled by other tools more often practiced because they fit a wider range of situations.

Still, ma's are about the trainee getting what he's looking for out of them. If you have the dedication to condition those weapons and the desire to master them, then by all means go for it. I'd never say that one shouldn't work towards a high level of skill in them. Part of the beauty of studying ma's is that no one really looks at them or their training thru the same prisim.