Hardest Weapon to train with

[JusticeZero]

Well actually, there was the less outlandish one that I actually did train a little bit with - razors gripped between the toes.. a bit of a pain learning how to grip the darned things, let alone do acrobatics with them!

[bushido_man96]

That sounds like an interesting way to use a weapon. That would take a lot of skill!

[JusticeZero]

It's a pain! But there's easier ways to do it. Some used sharpened taps on the toes - very short blade, but when one is doing crescent kicks at carotid artery height, it doesn't have to be long. The razors in toes was a popular trick for awhile though, and it does wonders for defense practice when you're sparring someone with a mock blade in their toes and can't just expect to absorb the blows anymore.

[tallgeese]

Interesting. Seems like it pigeon holes you into a deadly force threat response, however. That's not a problem if you have to respond to a deadly force threat, but what if you have to use foot movements against something that dosen't rise to that level?

[JusticeZero]

Well, if you are preparing and using bladed weapons, then you are at a 'deadly force' level by default. One does not pull out a knife or gun expecting the scenario to remain at the submission level of the spectrum. Nonetheless, if one does have blades in one's feet, one can still strike with the heel or side of the sole/ankle bone without necessarily bringing the blade into play.

Certainly one of the more frustrating things I had to study. Most people don't practice using their toes much, and that requires a moderately high level of podiatric dexterity. I don't walk barefoot much; walking barefoot builds muscle and such in the feet, and the structure of the foot tends to widen as a result; I already wear size 12 EEEEEE shoes with extra roomy toe boxes, and if my foot widens much more, I won't be able to buy shoes at all. Thus, i'm no exception to the rule, and my toes are nowhere near as nimble as they might otherwise be. I would therefore think it counts as a "hard weapon to train".

I wouldn't consider it to be self-defense anymore, unless the world goes all Mad Max on me; it was a historical and skillbuilding exercise. At one point in history, long ago, it was rather a more reasonable thing to do, but that time and situation has long since sailed.

The same can be said, really, of most martial arts weapons, though; one is not so terribly likely anymore to, for instance, have a job with potential for being attacked at which involves using agricultural hand sickles, for instance. People train with kama all the time anyways. Presumably it's possible that such a situation might one day arise again; until then, it's just kind've cool.

[tallgeese]

Yeah, you've just articulated why I don't study trad weapons. It's an exercise in historical combat. That's great if that's what you're into. It's just not a focus for me. Knives, clubs, guns, that's about where weapons training is at for me due to the practicality.

I get what you're saying about already being at deadly force. My thought was that by using the blades on shoes you'd already placed them into that catagory, so any sort of kick now throw would by defalut be into the deadly force catagory. So out go the ever useful MT rounds and front kicks should you need them in a less than lethal encounter.

As for using a different aspect of the foot while employing them, I'd think you'd be on shaky legal ground, regardless of your skill level. The law probibly wouldn't make the distinction.

[JusticeZero]

My thought was that by using the blades on shoes you'd already placed them into .. the deadly force catagory.

As for using a different aspect of the foot while employing them, I'd think you'd be on shaky legal ground, regardless of your skill level. The law probibly wouldn't make the distinction.

I would presume it would be similar to, for instance, doing techniques with the stock of a shotgun. The shotgun itself is lethal, but if you turn it around and use the stock of the shotgun for a restraint or push, the intent to use the weapon lethally simply is not present; I don't know that a claim that a lethal weapon was being employed would gain much traction in court in that case. The fact that one is carrying around the weapon in a readied manner while getting into fights is a major issue in and of itself; you might be confusing the two issues.

I don't study trad weapons. It's an exercise in historical combat. That's great if that's what you're into. It's just not a focus for me. Knives, clubs, guns, that's about where weapons training is at for me due to the practicality.

One major benefit was that jogo practice with the mock blades stepped up my game noticably; I could no longer absorb anything, kicks changed their shape a bit, and I had to build up skill in using my toes to hold, manipulate, and pick up weapons; some of that helped the quality of my footwork. At least one of the other (rather more odd) techniques I had explained to me lacked that positive application, even if it gained style points.

Maculele - paired stick dance - we do as a timing drill, but enough of it is lost to time or unknown to me that I can't even claim that it has any combat value at all. It makes a good rhythm drill, though.

[tallgeese]

On the use of force, if you stocked the dude in the head with the butt of the shotty, then yes, it'd be considered lethal force. Not to mention, it'd be a tactic used outside of established procedures for most of us carrying them for LE duty.

If it comes out or the rifle for that matter, it's to use as a projectile weapon. If I have to go hands on, cuff, transition to a less than lethal weapon, ect., then the long gun is slung and the appropriate transition made. That's a whole skill set in and of itself.

And, if you're carrying a weapon around (legally, I mean) then it had better be readied for use with the intent to deploy it properly otherwise it's a liability. So, a folder should be clipped somewhere that it's accessable and you should know how it opens from the draw. A firearm should have a round in the chamber and saftied or decocked. A baton, well, it should just be accessable and you should be proficient with getting it open from wherever it is you carry it. Personally, the last one is one I never keep on me.

Just some thoughts on use of force as we talked about a post or tow ago.

[JusticeZero]

Sure.. I was actually thinking something more along the lines of "I had the shotgun out and in hand when I was attacked, because of threats the suspect had made; instead, he jumped out from off of a pile of boxes making some stupid bruce lee noise and tried to punch me with a really awful jumping punch; I stepped across and used the side of the barrel to block his arm and push him into a restraint position so I could cuff him." I would not expect that example to be ruled as use of a deadly weapon in that case; the weapon was not being used as a projectile weapon, and its use in the situation was purely due to it being in hand at the time for other reasons. Somewhat similar to having a weapon available in a limb, and consciously avoiding using the weapon aspects.

In any case, as seems to happen rather often, I am in agreement on you in this matter, even if our perspectives differ.

Edited May 10, 2009 by JusticeZero

[Throwdown0850]

I don't train weapons but if I did the nunchucku would prob get the best of me.