The Other Side Of The Fence!

[sensei8]

Acts of self-promoting has caused many a rifts inside the martial arts. I'm sure Kano and Funakoshi have turned over in their graves more than once.

[sensei8]

Did you see that actually happen?

Yes I did and Yes I have seen this happen!

[Tiger1962]

I've been in a situation quite a few times where a senior ranking person at my school would be teaching the class for our regular instructor and we would be working on a technique or form and the instructor would be showing us the incorrect method. Suppose you KNOW this person is teaching you INCORRECTLY but speaking up to the instructor to voice this would be considered "out of protocol". How to rectify this? Wait until regular instructor is back in class and ask for correct technique to be shown. Yet, over and over again the same technique is shown incorrectly by alternate instructor who will pitch a fit if anyone dares correct him/her or challenges him/her and if so, you will hear from him/her "I AM THE INSTRUCTOR" (dan member, sa bom, kyo sa, etc., -- insert title here) It's so frustrating.

Some people are so quick to remind others of their rank, certificate and whatnot, but on the floor, it's apparent that rank doesn't demonstrate the knowledge that is supposed to go along with it. I know a few individuals who fit this. Thankfully, I no longer have to put up with it, since I no longer train at said school.

This is where learning how to teach comes into play. I think that it is important for instructors to have an instructor's class, where they can get together and discuss and review how they teach the forms, moves, etc, of the system, and more importantly, why they teach them that way. I think this kind of class can decrease the number of incidents like Tiger here has discussed.

I agree with you 110% and in the style I used to train in, they did hold (and still do) instructor classes.

However, judging from what I've seen in the past after these instructor classes, I don't suspect they discussed HOW to teach correctly or if they did/do, very little time is spent on that - again judging from the results of what I would witness in class afterwards. I think they work strictly on improving their own technique, which is good, but, there are some instructors who really need to improve their TEACHING skills. Perhaps my situation is a rare one and those of you out there don't find this problem where you train.

[Ozpunker]

In regards to self promotion, In my style our head instructor (5th dan) is also the co-founder of the style. Apparently somewhere along the line he was given the title Renshi within our system.... When the other founder left, our instructor decided to drop the Renshi title because it was given 'in house' and was kind of like a self promotion. He was given the title again a few years down the track by a collection of other senior martial arts in the country (Other styles). Last November I was privileged enough to see the same collective or senior instructors promote him the Shihan.

I think this may be similar to what Grego was saying.

[isshinryu5toforever]

The situations are a little different. Grego's instructor still gets ranked by people of the same style. He just doesn't belong to their organization.

Your instructor gets ranked by a board of higher ranking dans from different styles. I don't fully disagree with that, because under certain circumstances, it may be the only way to get ranked. If you're really that worried about it, then I guess it can be a thing for you to do.

[Wuwei]

Can Joe Shmoe fight and can he teach me to do the same? Can he instil morality in his students and create well armed responsible martial artist who get more out of life because of their training under him? If so I don't give two cents where he got his shodan from more less his Judan. The only thing thats fishy to me is that he bothered with the ranks through his own facility at all. And I guess thats the point. I didn't really need him to have another stripe on his belt to teach me and I find it a little odd that he felt this need considering he had already broken away from his previous orginization. That is certainly a red flag.

[Liver Punch]

I see no problem whatsoever with being promoted by an organization that you created as long as a certain criteria are met. I cannot say if they necessarily were met in this hypothetical because there are a few unknown factors.

Is the organization he founded legitimate? That is, are they respected within the community, do they practice ethical standards when promoting students, and do they govern over a group of schools with students who meet the general standards of their given rank.

Does Sensei Smoe have direct control over his own promotion? Does "deciding it's time for a promotion" mean signing the certificates in the Dojo office and declaring it to be so, or does it involve some sort of actual testing procedure, and/or weighing of the facts against other people of the same standard?

Is his brand of Shotokan notably different? Has it evolved, been modified, or had other styles incorporated into it? Is there anything that makes his "style" different enough from everyone else that they could not accurately judge him?

Most importantly: is his promotion self-promotion and shameless? There's a lot of 10th Dan snake oil salesmen. This is where the community and individuals typically make their judgements as to whether or not something improper has taken place.

A 10th Dan in Rex-Kwon Do is probably not legitimate. A self-given 9th Dan black belt in a highly organized art such as TKD is probably incredibly shady. But the you get into the things that are both likely to be legitimate and actually legitimate.

Kano just made the whole ranking thing up, but I think we're all in agreement that it's legitimate Helio Gracie was a 6th Dan in Judo, but a 10th Dan in Gracie Jiu Jitsu. His rank was given to him by himself and his family in an art that he invented. Many hybrid arts have promoted its members to high Dan ranks without any outside influence.

That's not to say that you can shamelessly self-promote yourself - that makes you a McBlack Belt. The proper channel for Sensei Smoe would have been to either seek his rank with the most established and popular organization within his art, or to set up a joint testing procedure with his highest ranking students as well as representatives from other schools/organizations.

Ultimately, rank means little when dealing with people from other schools and arts. I always give someone with a black belt the respect that I assume they've earned by getting that belt. While they often times prove me wrong on my assumption, general courtesy dictates that I not be a jerk. Respect for one's skill, however is earned, and should their black belt not be representative of a legitimate skill level, it tends to show.

To summarize: who cares? A black belt in TKD is worthless in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu competition, and a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu won't do you a whole lot of good in Eskrima. Everyone's rank is illegitimate to someone.

[Wuwei]

To summarize: who cares? A black belt in TKD is worthless in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu competition, and a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu won't do you a whole lot of good in Eskrima. Everyone's rank is illegitimate to someone.

Which is why I'd like to just be rid of them. But I get yelled at when I say that to much. The day I have my own dojo....

[MasterPain]

You'll have to call it a gym. Dojos have rank.

[sensei8]

Thanks to all who've contributed to the thread...some very great points!!