How many weapons can you list that used to be farm equipment

[LeaF]

hmmm...I do understand that Okinawa was not too rich in iron and many metals but they did have much trade going on with china and Japan so they could have imported it easily and concievable produced zai at a price resonably low if they bought raw meterials in large mass...

 

one of the web sitees I listed in my previous post seems to agree with this being a possiblity the site says...

A second theory is that the sai was a direct import from China or Indonesia. This theory states that there was no Okinawan tool upon which it was based. The rational for this theory is that there is little iron on Okinawa which would be needed to make the sai. Thus, the case for the sai being an import.

 

Altough it may have been important there is no arguing that many early versions of the sai have been found in okinawa... Now if they were not farm instruments you could say that they were developed solely as weapons to fight the samurai, well I see many problems with this. Firstly how did they get to Okinawa if a metal weapons were baned.... Sure they couple have snuck a couple pairs in but why bother when sneaking zai when swords where much more a common weapon and a weapon people knew how to use already, why would they not just have snuck swords.... And if they were weapons not farm tools how would the okinawans justify there existance... I mean they couldn't just have them lying around their houses without a reason, and even if they were kept secret why bother... Why bring in this completely foriegn weapon that they would have to come up with a brand new fighting system for, when they could bring in a sword, a weapon that was much more common before the metal ban, and that many more people knew how to use, if they had to keep them both secret why choose something new over something known.....

 

Of coarse there is no solid answer and surely cannot tell you what is true. Perhaps Tobias you could tell me further why it is impossible to concieve that the sai could not merely be an imported farm instrument during a time period when trade between china, japan and okinawa was a common thing Share some more ideas you have and other possiblities [/b]

[AndrewGreen]

As for sai, according to the Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinko Kai:

 

http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.com/

 

"passed through India and China to enter the Ryukyu where it was further developed. During the Ryukyu Kingdom Era, it was originally devised as a policing tool for the protection of the King and high ministers. Used in combat situations and in the arresting of ruffians, criminals. The Busa (martial artists) formulated Kata so people could train by themselves in offensive and defensive techniques. The primary emphasis being self-defence and policing"

 

and while I'm at it

 

"Nunchaku Popular myth says that the Nunchaku was used as flail, however it is not true. The Okinawan flail, like European, had long handles. The Nunchaku was originally used as a horse bit. As in the picture on the left. It was not very popular as it has a low effectiveness when used against the sword or staff. In situations against Tonfa or Kama, it had more chance of defeating the opponent. Nunchaku exists in many martial arts forms all over the world and became very popular due to Bruce Lee and other high profile moviemakers. This weapon is never the less effective in self-defence, if the time is taken to become proficient with it. Beware, this weapon has the tendency to cause bruises, especially when learning."

 

They even have pictures of the horse bit, they're quite usable, but feel funny at first.

[Tobias_Reece]

We could go on rambling and rambling about theories, but that is all they will be - THEORIES.

 

MY GOD - I'm sounding like and ex-member of KF.com (can't mention names - I'll get into trouble!!!1) ........ quick, better slip out of that mode.

 

You make lots of fair points Leaf, many of which haven't been thought of before.

 

A quick copy and paste job I think......

 

 

Much has been written about what the sai is. (Sai being the singular, zai the plural.) In fact statements can be read that the sai is/was this or that. I would like to explain the theories of origin as told to me by Shihan Nishiuchi and Sensei Bolz, both of the International Okinawa Kobudo Association. As they explained these theories, the proverbial "penny dropped" and made the other theories I had heard or read less creditable.

 

Before being educated by Shihan and Sensei I had been told or read that the sai was originally a tool for shifting hay. Now in Okinawa there is not too much in the way of hay farming as the main crop is rice (the penny drops). Another theory was the sai was used as a digging tool to plant seeds with by the Okinawan peasants. In Okinawa there are insufficient minerals to produce steel in vast quantities. Steel would have to have been imported, thus making it expensive and probably unobtainable to the peasants of Okinawa (the penny drops again). The four theories of origin.

 

1. The Manji sai is thought to have been developed by studying the Buddhist symbol, Manji. The Buddhist symbol resembles a reverse swastika and represents the philosophy of yin-yang. It is uncertain whether Chinese or Okinawans invented the sai.

 

2. Some think that the sai was devised by the inspiration of the kanji of the Japanese writing for "right" and "left".

 

3. Another theory is that the shape of the sai resembles the human form, which Okinawans believe to represent authority. Okinawan police would display the sai as a badge of office, much the same way that Western sheriffs and U.S. marshals wore the "tin star". Because of the expense of owning sai, only higher ranked (higher paid) police officers could afford sai.

 

4. The fourth theory comes from the sai being based on the design of the Okinawan ladies' hairpin, kanzashi.

 

These are the theories that Shihan and Sensei explained to me. They made a great deal of sense to me, as did their other theories of the Okinawan Kobudo weapons. Because of the lack of documentation we have to rely on these theories, but the theories must contain an element of support to make them more substantive.

 

Hope this helps

[KickChick]

Metal was not readily available to the peasants.

 

...when the Japanese overran the island of Okinawa they forbade the possession of metal weapons.(I don't know if this was the case for the sai) but...the tonfa (an Okinawan weapon that dates back to the 17th century) a 15-20inch-long round piece of wood with a short handle

 

attached was originally used as a grain-grinding instrument then became became a weapon to Okinawans due to this fact.

 

The nunchaku ... another Okinawan farm tool was used to flail rice. The two unequal lengths of hardwood attached - by a short cord made it possible to strike grain with tremendous force. Later the "instrument" was used to strike and choke opponents in lethal fighting situations.

 

But when you look at both of these weapons, it becaomes apparent to you of it's origin.

 

Hoplology also studies this micoanalysis of fighting weaponry.

 

http://www.karateforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=54221#54221

[Tobias_Reece]

You could be right KickChick, but then again you could be wrong. We just don't know.

 

Oh, and the Okinawans didn't call then tonfa - tonfa was a japanese name. Tsun kuwa, tunkua are acceptable - but hey, thats just me being picky.