Good Technique does not equal Good Application

[bushido_man96]

This subject came to mind during a conversation with my instructor (which tends to bring up a lot of my topics).

He is a big believer in technique, and so am I. He pushes basics, and forms, and the one-steps (billed as self-defense techniques), and sparring comes last in class, for around 10 to 15 minutes (if we get to it at all).

I don't mind doing basics and forms, and I think that having good technique is important. But his data is collected from his days in coming up through the ranks, competing as a black belt, and doing very well. He was the middle weight champ at a yearly tournament in Kanas City for 10 years straight, which is quite a feat, and hasn't been duplicated to date. One of his fellow classmates was the heavyweight champ at the same tourney for about as many years in a row, and he also went on to be a professional kickboxer. So, these guys had some talent. But, I don't feel that their experiences parallel those of every other practitioner.

I think that good applications are a big part of learning to spar and defend oneself successfully. We have quite a few students in the class that are openly irritated with sparring; they don't like to do it, and I think it is because they don't have many good experiences with it. Instead of getting chances to work sparring drills, like counters, two-person ring drills, and generally sparring enough to learn and become comfortable with applying these techniques, we "just spar." It has been my experience in these situations that the more aggressive and dominant types will excell in this kind of setting, whereas the more timid will fall by the wayside.

I am a big believer in technique; its half the battle. But, the other half is application of that good technique. Working the strategies to go with the techniques, and make them effective, is the best of both worlds, in my opinion.

What is everyone else's opinions on this?

[wingedMonkey]

Most definitely, in our dojang our master compares technique/forms and sparring/freestyle with the ying and the yang. That you can't practice one without the other. She has also been a 7 time world champion in our style and is considered one of the toughest out there in our style.

The point she likes to make also is that practicing techniques are good for muscle memory and training hard so that when you fight in real life you do it in an easier position which allows you to hit harder and even faster.

[JusticeZero]

What exactly is the question? I see a lot about people not wanting to spar, and I tend to sympathize with them. "Just sparring" is a terrible misuse of training time. People sport-adapt the art to work in a sparring situation, destroying the combat aspects of their training in the process. Line dancing would be a more efficient use of training time, let alone good scenario drills and pair work! Go find some of the drills that the police/military/militia/whatever RBSD types are playing with and see about doing some of those instead of "just sparring". If you're going to use sparring, it needs to be tightly focused toward developing specific skills from the work done during that class. "You can only use techniques A, B, or C." "X can only defend." "X has to stay next to the wall so they can work on the wall techniques we did today."

[bushido_man96]

Yes, JusticeZero, that is what I was getting at.

I guess the question would be, "Do you feel that learning good technique is more important than learning the application of the technique(s) learned?"

[JusticeZero]

Maybe, though I don't generally find sparring to be good for working application..

You obviously need both, but as a rule, sparring doesn't really deliver on either. At best it helps to train how to open up windows to use applications. Pair drills like the one-steps or more advanced versions of such are where you get application from. Learn how the techniques work and play around with them.

[bushido_man96]

Ok, I'd go with that, too. But, the bottom line is, if you spar in the school, then the instructor should teach drills applicable to the sparring done in the school, as opposed to assuming that the students will get good at it just by doing basics and forms.

My topic here is not meant to apply strictly to self-defense, or to sparring, but to be encompassing of both, depending on which your style does. So, as a Caporiea player, I would guess that you likely practice drills that are done in the roda as a focused exercise, to prepare for their use in the roda. Am I close here?

[JusticeZero]

We usually do a lot of paired drills with sequences of movements on both sides, to work technique with application. "X opens with Technique 1, then parks here and starts technique 2; Y escapes T1 with T-A, then does T-B. X responds by aborting T2 into T3, both au left, switch roles of X and Y and repeat.. if those kicks wouldn't hit, don't defend against it! If Y leaves their foot hanging out like she was yesterday, forget doing the next movement and just sweep it!".

Those vary from day to day. Usually they are applicable to roda play, but sometimes, self defence stuff gets thrown in there such as when T1 is say, a boxing hook or a wrestling shoot or some such thing.

Alternately we do stuff like put a blindfold on someone and tell them to ginga and defend while we toss punches at them, or we tell them to jogo (basically 'spar') but forbid either one of them from throwing any attacks whatsoever - just footwork, or we move down the room on their hands or some other transition movements in some way or other, or... heck, I can think of lots of things we do. But we don't just start bopping each other in a sporty sparring match.

[tallgeese]

To the basic question, proper execution is important but it's useless without understanding application. It'd be like the square hole-round peg thing.

Sparring can teach this, but like you said bushido man, it has to be taught. I'm a firm believer in drilling different sparring movments during class time. Breaking things down and working the pieces is very important. Once you've drilled that or specific concepts, then you can chain everything together.

As to the sparring/self defense question nad how it applies, I think that sparrring should be done in ammer that enhances sd skill and is an intregal part ot teaching it, both shysically and mentally. It's more about the hows or sparring than the act of sparring that mek it useful. Most of the scraps I"ve been in on the job have been more like a sparring session of ours than anything elseoutside of armored committed attack and defend drills. Hence, I find it very useful in training peope to fight.

I think attack and defend drills are important too. I don't like to think in terms of "technique". It has too many connotations of meeting x attack with y defence. This tends to get student trapped in a pattern that makes them less than adaptable and effective in a real fight. Sparring is useful in taking those skills frompre set drill to live. It's agood stepping stone.

Thata being said, it can be a lot of fun to gust go spar. I think that this kind of thing should cap off most training sessions that are focused on sparring just to keep the energy levels and enthusiasm up It also help gel the whole thing you've been working on. You just can't make it the entire training protocol.

[Throwdown0850]

Maybe, though I don't generally find sparring to be good for working application..

You obviously need both, but as a rule, sparring doesn't really deliver on either. At best it helps to train how to open up windows to use applications. Pair drills like the one-steps or more advanced versions of such are where you get application from. Learn how the techniques work and play around with them.

maybe I have misunderstood this but, I disagree, good sparring is the ONLY way of finding if techniques are applicable.

[JusticeZero]

Well, let's take something basic like a foot sweep.

Proper form has to be taught outside of sparring, because that's all about structure. It's a matter of alignment and momentum and such.

If you just start throwing it randomly in the circle, you'll decide pretty quickly that it's useless, but it's really quite useful.

How to recognize the window of when to use it - how to apply it - takes some demonstration and paired playing around with. The openings for the technique have to be explicitly laid out and taught; what an opportunity to use the sweep looks like, where the person being swept will go to, these are things that really involve giving each other openings noncompetitively and being swept in paired exercises where you can mutually explore how the technique works and examine the dynamics of the technique in isolation.

Only after working out the structure and non-competitive experimentation are you going to be able to really recognize when you can apply it, and if you're in the circle with someone who wants to 'win', those opportunities will be fresh in their mind and they'll go out of their way to deny you the opportunities to practice it.

Working out other ways of responding to being swept after that is going to mostly involve other drills or just thinking it through.

The part that the competitive aspect helps is just finding times to use the skills covered elsewhere.