Groin kicking in sparring

[akedm]

Now I can understand why practicing the kick to the groin would be useful, I think anyone can understand that. But that should be saved for real-life self-defense training, right?

I heard this from my friend that sometimes in class the guys end up getting kicked in the groin and even with a cup they say it hurts. She said it's a great spot to kick - well duh. She didnt say more about it and I didnt ask so maybe it was just accident after unintentional accident (poor kick control), but if not - if it's an intentional thing - then my thinking in sparring is that if you decide to come at me with an attack intended to double me over instead of deciding to spar with me on moves karate has taught, then forget ma altogether cause I'm coming at you with an attack to make you double over. I dont care if you're a 5'4" 120lb girl or a 6'4" 255lb guy like me. You no longer deserve a pass or to keep the belt you earned.

I'll say again for those who dont know me, I'm not a ma practitioner of any kind. And I'll say it, I have trouble confronting my violent side - I'm not violent mainly cause I've had too much of that in my past - so maybe I lack that combative mindset. But I'd consider the groin area off limits in sparring and even kumite, but maybe that's cause I dont understand the "rules of the ring". So to me I'd kinda lose it cause to me it's not a sparring move, it's a personal attack.

Granted a guy needs to learn to defend against it, but still it shouldnt be a "free kick' zone for the opponent in a regulated match. A martial arts discipline is not primarily taken for real-life self defense, a self-defense class is. In ma you're in it for years, so you'd be in the wrong class if your intent is to learn self-defense like groin kicks and whatnot. If you want to learn self-defense you want to learn it now cause you feel you have a need to learn it now, so you take a self-defense class so you can learn what works immediately.

Physically speaking ma is a sport with competitions like kata and kumite (spelling??), or taken as an exercise like going to the gym. Either way it's an undertaking of slow progression and discipline. So why when sparring would groin kicks be allowed? Or are they? Are they in your class or is there a rule against them?

[tallgeese]

I'd respectfully disagree a bit here.

I do think that the primary function of any martial art study should be self defense. Granted, arts have fractured quite a bit in the modern era so there are plenty that aren't focused on combatives these days, and that's fine- so long as the instructors there re up front about it. If one wants to study for combative purposes, then they should find a school that gives them that. If they want a sport or phylosophical disclipline, then they should seek one of those out. The bottom line is that they should find a school that wil meet their needs.

For me, ma's are about fighting. Everything else one can glean from their study is secondary in nature. I won't argure that the diclipline and training that a ma-er puts in does seperate him from a random guy swinging his fists, but at the end of the day, at it's core, ma is about fighting.

In light of that, I think that groin kicking should be taught, and practiced, and defended against. This includes in select sparring situations. Appropriate equiment is a must, good control helps, and everyone needs to be up to speed on the expectations about its use. I don't think it needs to be done every sparring session, after all kneeding someone there doesnot take years of study to figure out. But it should be utilized on occassion. Certanly it needs to be on the table during simulatin drills.

The other thing to consider that, as effective as it is, it's not a magic bullit. People can and have walked thru them for one reason or another. Which is another good reason to work them in sparring from time to time. It helps dull the inital mental lock up that can occur with contact there. So, working them into an ongoing sparring situation helps one prepare to adapt to the possibility that the fight continues after one lands solid on the street.

It's akin to practicing eye gouges agaisnt goggles or sheilded head gear. It's simulating very useful weapons in a free fight enviornment. Again, dosn't have to be done everytime, but it's good to keep honed with this kind of thing occassionally. Addint them sparring keeps you fluid and adapting to changing situations and attakers that keep coming. Good training.

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, it seems like it's mostly just women who think that kicking to the groin is a real fight winner..

I tell my students that in self defence, all a groin attack does is make them easier to catch after the fact. I've been hit in the groin pretty solidly before; in an adrenalized state, it only registers as slight discomfort, easily ignored in favor of doing elaborate kicking techniques and the like. It doesn't have any effect until they calm down and relax.

That said, a technique intended purely to cause pain seems a bit annoying to have to deal with being applied regularly by the ladies in the gym. On the bright side, they aren't exactly invulnerable to such treatment either, if you notice some female being a bit eager with that particular target.

[joesteph]

Now I can understand why practicing the kick to the groin would be useful, I think anyone can understand that. But that should be saved for real-life self-defense training, right?

I would agree that practicing without striking is useful, and it’s incorporated into a number of self-defense techniques taught in a standard karate class. These are the same techniques that contain palm heels to the nose and knife hands to the throat, but without carrying out an actual strike.

[M]y thinking in sparring is that if you decide to come at me with an attack intended to double me over instead of deciding to spar with me on moves karate has taught, then forget ma altogether cause I'm coming at you with an attack to make you double over. (emphasis added)

Many martial artists view sparring as a forum to practice karate moves without it becoming a brawl. By what you’ve said, Akedm, it seems that this is how you view it, and this is what you expect in the curriculum of the school where you train. If school regulations reflect this, then you’re in the right.

A martial arts discipline is not primarily taken for real-life self defense, a self-defense class is. . . . If you want to learn self-defense you want to learn it now cause you feel you have a need to learn it now, so you take a self-defense class so you can learn what works immediately.

I realize there’s debate on this among forum members, but I do see your reasoning. People study martial arts for different reasons, which often means that the primary reason isn’t the same for everyone. The primary reason might be character development, exercise, self-defense, or simply something you enjoy doing during your free time.

Whatever the rules of the dojang/dojo are, as set by your instructor, so long as all know them and continue to train there, then all are expected to abide by them. Students are free to remain, leave, or supplement their training, the latter perhaps taking classes focusing intently on self-defense.

Edited April 15, 2009 by joesteph

[akedm]

I'd like some women's perspective on this.

[JusticeZero]

It isn't clear that the opinion of people with two X chromosomes is going to be consistent JUST because of their plumbing...

[akedm]

Certainly not, nor would I hope they would be.

Let me tell you what I'm seeing right now in my head more than with any other post: We're all sitting around a table, you, me and a bunch of other people who haven’t spoken, men, women, instructors, and most everyone’s in ma; In fact everyone is, except me. So maybe my question is naïve, but nonetheless we talk about it, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

And now the topic's hit a lull. And though all the men know exactly the pain and vulnerability we’ve talked about, none of the women have decided to speak. I think that’s interesting. They’re the ones often attacking that spot.

I imagine if we were in a circle or at a table a few of us would notice none of the women spoke up. I imagine a few of us would like to hear from a few because in fact their mindset may generally be different. At any rate their silence is noticeable.

Let me put it a different way: Why am I asking the question? I thought the topic important enough that I’d try to spread an awareness that the women may not fully appreciate unless it were done to them.

Obviously that's not possible; hence, my curiosity at their silence. Do they appreciate the potential devastation of that attack? Perceptually they might, on the side of their mind they might, but probably not front and center like a man. Police train with pepper spray to the face so the user may know exactly how it feels. Every trainee, male and female, becomes aware of that equally.

So for a kick to the man’s groin I’d use an analogy everyone could appreciate equally. My idea being that there are no men or woman in ma; there are only students.

I’d equate a kick in the groin to a poke in the eye: easily accomplished, without much force, to a vulnerable spot, and devastating to all the senses. Might the other sex be a bit more respectful to what they may consider a casual though devastating attack if they too had the mental picture of getting poked in the eye?

Might then the sparring matches be more productive and safe for everyone? After all it is practice, not personal and all about discipline. I imagine the instructor wants everyone to show up the next day 100% ready to go.

Thank you, Justice, I was not clear enough before in my post. I was clumsy Thanks for asking for clarification.

If we were actually at the table I’d use that analogy so everyone is aware and everyone is on the same page of how devastating that attack is, especially the women. Some, though I guarantee not all women have that particular perspective. And before sparring think everyone should have the same perspective.

[JusticeZero]

Women are vulnerable to impacts to the groin at certain angles; they are also somewhat vulnerable to shock-impact strikes to the upper chest. Anyone facing a girl who overly favors kicking male partners between the legs may be advised to do the same with scraping hits, and use a lot of things like snap backfists against the chest. Gender equality cuts both ways, after all..

[bushido_man96]

I tend to view MA practice in the same light that tallgeese does, as a self-defense art. So, groin kicking is a good, vialble target to be practiced on. However, you have to be careful in practice.

Like tg mentions, I think it is important that proper gear be worn, and that it not be done all the time. Like he said, it is not a hard skill to learn, but to be aware of it is important. Practice on it is good, but it has to be a monitored, protected practice; after all, we don't want guys ending up with permanent problems because every class calls for a mandatory groin kick.

Now, for some specificities....(wow, what a good word.... )

Physically speaking ma is a sport with competitions like kata and kumite (spelling??), or taken as an exercise like going to the gym. Either way it's an undertaking of slow progression and discipline. So why when sparring would groin kicks be allowed? Or are they?

This is where you begin to see some of the developments of Martial Arts practice today. Often times, kumite or sparring, especially in competitions, become a test of skill against skill. In as much as that goes, sometimes good targets are outlawed to increase the skill level involved. For example, Olympic TKD likes to focus on kicks, so you see very little hand usage, and lots of kicks, especially some higher ones. A lot of Karate styles like to call point when one good, solid technique is demonstrated with exacting skill. Kyokushin likes knockdowns and power, and even the MMAs extol skill through the ranges of usage (standing, ground, clinch). But, you will notice that in all of them, even the MMA, that the groin kick is typically outlawed. Reason being, to test skill, and to allow the matches to have some length to them. But, this is different from self-defense, where that one shot may be what you want to get away.

A martial arts discipline is not primarily taken for real-life self defense, a self-defense class is. In ma you're in it for years, so you'd be in the wrong class if your intent is to learn self-defense like groin kicks and whatnot. If you want to learn self-defense you want to learn it now cause you feel you have a need to learn it now, so you take a self-defense class so you can learn what works immediately.

Here is where I think that there shouldn't be a division between Martial Art and self-defense. If your Martial Art doesn't teach self-defense applications, then I don't view it as truly being a Martial Art. Although it is true that everyone takes the MAs for different reasons, I think that no matter what, the practitioner should come out of the classes with knowledge of self-defense. If they don't, then I don't think it is a Martial Art.

Yeah, it seems like it's mostly just women who think that kicking to the groin is a real fight winner..

I tell my students that in self defence, all a groin attack does is make them easier to catch after the fact. I've been hit in the groin pretty solidly before; in an adrenalized state, it only registers as slight discomfort, easily ignored in favor of doing elaborate kicking techniques and the like. It doesn't have any effect until they calm down and relax.

I think that this can go both ways, depending on the person. Everyone will react differently. Some walk right through it, and others will drop like a rock. Still, its worth a try. If it hits, its a hit, and can lead to other hits. Some guys have iron jaws....but I'd be willing to bet that the groin isn't as tough as that...unless they are one of those crazy guys you see on TV late at night pulling a truck with there.....you get my point.

I'd like some women's perspective on this.

I'm sure some will chime in soon. But, I have seen from personal experience, that a groin kick to a female can have similar results as to a male. Its still a pressure point on a female.

[Patrick]

We have plenty of female members. In fact, 41% of our visitors are female according to Quantcast (traffic measuring site). If you want someone's perspective, you can always send them a PM and ask for it. I'm going to go PM a few ladies now.

Thanks,

Patrick