Hand Off!! Teaching Other Styles!

[tallgeese]

But this hypothetical guys has a) trained in Shotokan and b) is a shodan in it. Why shouldn't he teach it to the level he's attained?

[joesteph]

Is the question whether he can teach it and confer ranks on students, or whether he can teach it at all?

I really think that, so long as the students know he isn't certified by an organization, then the freedom is there for them to choose. He may even be free to make changes that the organization has been "examining" (as in "put on the back burner") and so be in the Shotokan tradition, but an independent version (an earlier posting referred to a hybrid) of the art.

In my personal/career life, the parochial high school I've taught in for thirty-four years now can no longer be maintained past June 30th of this year by the religious order that founded it. We're not shutting down, we're going independent, and we have an incoming freshman class this September. It's all been publicized, so there's no dishonesty.

[bushido_man96]

If he's ranked in it, yes, he can teach it. If he's a bb, then he's qualified at some level. Now, will any rank he gives be recognized by certain bodies? mybe or maybe not. But as long as he's passing along good info, why not?

I fall along these lines here. If he is teaching good, sound, usable self-defense, then I don't see any reason that he can't.

Now, whether or not he can really promote as a Shotokan practitioner, I don't know. But, the knowledge that you can gain is what is important; more so than a certificate of rank from an organization.

[DWx]

Question to sensei8:

Is Sensei John Doe receiving any instruction in Shotokan now or does he have anyone to oversee his teaching of Shotokan or was he educated in Shotokan to a level above shodan even though he physically doesn't have the belt?

If the answer is no, then I say he shouldn't be teaching Shotokan. He can teach what he knows (it may be good stuff martially) but I have a problem with him calling it Shotokan if he only has a shodan's knowledge of the art. Its not enough IMO to only have a shodan's knowledge and to teach totally unassisted and still claim to teach it as it Shotokan is meant to be. A shodan is still learning and cannot possibly claim to know all of the inner workings of the style. I don't know, I'm guess I'm a purist. If you're going to be teaching something and want to associate what you teach with all that history and lineage and whatever you better make sure that you are actually teaching it.

I'm not going to mention names or anything but in my own studying I've come across someone who claimed to be teaching a certain style but when you're in the classes, aside from the form set everything is completely different even down to the very principles of the style. As a martial art there's nothing wrong with it but you're not actually teaching the students what you claim to teach. It would be like teaching a form of Karate but then telling your students your style was called Tai Chi...

[Holland]

Is he a good teacher? Does he teach good karate?

Realistically these are the only questions I think about when deciding whether or not to spend time training with someone.

[sensei8]

Is Sensei John Doe receiving any instruction in Shotokan now or does he have anyone to oversee his teaching of Shotokan or was he educated in Shotokan to a level above shodan even though he physically doesn't have the belt?

Again, the OP question(s) were derived through nothing more than a hypothetical, not real, situation(s).

Therefore, I'll let each of you decide as to what the answer/situation(s) are to be.

Shotokan should be recognized by Shotokan practitioners/organzations ONLY? Yet, if someone is a certified Shodan, for example, in Shotokan at one time under the guidance/leadership of the JKA, then as he's already a Hachidan in Siedo Karate under Master Toma, but, he's teaching Shotokan as an additional seperate curriculum away from the Seido Karate, BUT, John Doe is RANKING EVERY STUDENT UNDER THE SEIDO BANNER...IRREGARDLESS IF ITS SHOTOKAN OR NOT!

Does Master Toma concur with John Doe's actions? I'll leave this answer to each of you do decide.

Edited May 20, 2009 by sensei8

[sensei8]

Is he a good teacher? Does he teach good karate?

Realistically these are the only questions I think about when deciding whether or not to spend time training with someone.

For me, per the hypothetical I've layed out for all, your questions aren't enough for me. Why teach me Shotokan up to Shodan in Shotokan, yet, my rank comes from/under the Seido Banner of Shihan Toma through John Doe?

But this hypothetical guys has a) trained in Shotokan and b) is a shodan in it. Why shouldn't he teach it to the level he's attained?

I don't know, you tell me. Can he teach it TO THE LEVEL he's attained? NO! Why? If he's only attainded Shodan in Shotokan then, by the by-laws of the JKA, John Doe can only advance his Shotokan students up to the rank of Ikkyu. After Ikkyu, that student would have to find a Sandan to promote this student to Shodan, yet, John Doe is certifying to Shodan in Shotokan under the Toma Banner of Seido, yet, the certs SAY...SHOTOKAN SHODAN.

Is the question whether he can teach it and confer ranks on students, or whether he can teach it at all?

Yes, to all questions above! Hypothetical, there is no right and there is no wrong. It's a personal preference at best!

[tallgeese]

Well, if you frame it that way and accept my premise above that he's a black belt ranked in a system, then my response is yes.

He can teach and rank up to his level because he should know the requirements to get there. I'm not a by-law kind of guy, all the fine print of an organization means very little to me. So, I don't care what banner he puts it under. Maybe they'd have a problem, but I wouldn't.

[bushido_man96]

But this hypothetical guys has a) trained in Shotokan and b) is a shodan in it. Why shouldn't he teach it to the level he's attained?

I don't know, you tell me. Can he teach it TO THE LEVEL he's attained? NO! Why? If he's only attainded Shodan in Shotokan then, by the by-laws of the JKA, John Doe can only advance his Shotokan students up to the rank of Ikkyu. After Ikkyu, that student would have to find a Sandan to promote this student to Shodan, yet, John Doe is certifying to Shodan in Shotokan under the Toma Banner of Seido, yet, the certs SAY...SHOTOKAN SHODAN.

Now that you bring this up, I see what you are saying. Typically, at the testings that I have been involved with, the judges sitting on the panel must be at least 2 dan ranks above the highest rank that is being tested for. So, at least two 3rd dans should be present to test/promote to 1st dan, and so on.

[sensei8]

But this hypothetical guys has a) trained in Shotokan and b) is a shodan in it. Why shouldn't he teach it to the level he's attained?

I don't know, you tell me. Can he teach it TO THE LEVEL he's attained? NO! Why? If he's only attainded Shodan in Shotokan then, by the by-laws of the JKA, John Doe can only advance his Shotokan students up to the rank of Ikkyu. After Ikkyu, that student would have to find a Sandan to promote this student to Shodan, yet, John Doe is certifying to Shodan in Shotokan under the Toma Banner of Seido, yet, the certs SAY...SHOTOKAN SHODAN.

Now that you bring this up, I see what you are saying. Typically, at the testings that I have been involved with, the judges sitting on the panel must be at least 2 dan ranks above the highest rank that is being tested for. So, at least two 3rd dans should be present to test/promote to 1st dan, and so on.

I concur! This is normal precedence no matter the style, even though, there are some exceptions to the norm.

Yet, aren't the Shotokan certs meaningless because they come from John Doe? And/or because the Shotokan certs come under the Seido Banner?