Hand Off!! Teaching Other Styles!

[sensei8]

I presented this very question and hypothetical scenario to another forum not of KF. Therefore, I present it to the members of KF for the purpose of a friendly discussion.

Could an instructor who's a black belt in a style that's not of Shotokan, for example, teach Shotokan?

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario...

Let's say that Sensei John Doe is a Hachidan in Seidokan Karate under Shihan Toma. Yet, Sensei John Doe teaches Shotokan, as well as many other Japanese/Okinawan styles of Karate, right beside primarily teaching Seidokan.

Sensei John Doe is extremely well versed in Shotokan as well as the Shotokan syllabus is concerned. Including, knowing the methodologies/ideologies and the like of Shotokan. So much so that it's comfortable/creepy that Sensei John Doe is as familiar with Shotokan as much as he is with Seidokan Karate.

Sensei John Doe knows Shotokan inside/outside; every Kata, Kihon, and Kumite as well as each and every Bunkai/Oyo Bunkai including, Kobudo of Shotokan.

But, Sensei John Doe isn't a certified instructor of the JKA/SKIF and/or any other Shotokan approved organization. No! Sensei John Doe's certified/approved in Seidokan Karate under Shihan Toma.

When Sensei John Doe certifies his students learning Shotokan; they're certified under the umbrella of Seidokan Karate's Shihan Toma. Still, Sensei John Doe teaches Shotokan from A to Z and back, not as part of Seido Karate, but as Shotokan.

Any of his past/present/future students can learn JUST Shotokan if they desire! Sensei John Doe does explain that this is a Seidokan Karate Dojo and this is what we primarily teach, but, if a student wants to learn Shotokan only, then that's fine with Sensei John Doe.

What do you think?

[bushido_man96]

I think that it sounds really strange. What are his Shotokan credentials? Does he actually know Shotokan, or is Seidokan so close to Shotokan that they two can't be differentiated?

Is there any more information that you can offer to the scenario?

[jaedeshi]

you say that John Doe is

"Sensei John Doe is extremely well versed in Shotokan as well as the Shotokan syllabus is concerned. Including, knowing the methodologies/ideologies and the like of Shotokan. So much so that it's comfortable/creepy that Sensei John Doe is as familiar with Shotokan as much as he is with Seidokan Karate.

Sensei John Doe knows Shotokan inside/outside; every Kata, Kihon, and Kumite as well as each and every Bunkai/Oyo Bunkai including, Kobudo of Shotokan."

Then why not? He could have trained under a qualified teacher but didn't want to through the trouble to become a certified instructor under "abc Shotokan org." In these days where most instructors don't teach MA as a profession why spend a load of money getting a certificate to prove to others what you already know to be true.

My instructor was an independent from MA organizations. So my rank is only good as for as his dojo door and that is fine with me.

[joesteph]

This makes me consider that someone might be "in the know" but isn't certified. I imagine that, to be accurate, it's in the Shotokan tradition, but not recognized by an established Shotokan organization.

[joesteph]

He could have trained under a qualified teacher but didn't want to through the trouble to become a certified instructor under "abc Shotokan org." In these days where most instructors don't teach MA as a profession why spend a load of money getting a certificate to prove to others what you already know to be true.

My instructor was an independent from MA organizations. So my rank is only good as for as his dojo door and that is fine with me.

My own teacher is a classroom teacher during school hours, and is certified by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation (say that three times fast), but if for some reason she decided to go independent, I would have no trouble having my children--and me--continue to study under her.

[sensei8]

I think that it sounds really strange. What are his Shotokan credentials? Does he actually know Shotokan, or is Seidokan so close to Shotokan that they two can't be differentiated?

Is there any more information that you can offer to the scenario?

Please remember, this topic is of a hypothetical scenario. Therefore, for hypothetical sake, let's look at it from both sides of the fence.

What are his Shotokan credentials?

A) He's only trained in Shotokan through his own studies and exchanges of ideas and the like with other Shotokan Karateka's for many, many years.

B) He's a Shodan in Shotokan and a Hachidan in Seidokan Karate.

Does he actually know Shotokan?

A) He's a Shodan in Shotokan, but, that's the only ranking in Shotokan through JKA. He's not a certified instructor mainly because he doesn't possess a Sandan or higher in Shotokan.

B) He actually knows Shotokan, although no formal training/ranking in Shotokan, yet, he knows every Shotokan Kata, Kihon, Kumite, Kobudo, Bunkai/Oyo, methodologies/ideologies, and syllabus. After all, he's an 8th Dan in Seidokan. One can't reach that Dan ranking without being very well versed in other Japanese/Okinawan styles of the Martial Arts.

...or is Seidokan so close to Shotokan that they two can't be differentiated?

No, I'd say that the two styles can be differentiated. One isn't the other nor could they be mistaken for the other. Both have Shuri and Tomari base, this is for sure. Their Kata's are different in name; Seidokan uses Pinan, while Shotokan uses Heian. Seidokan is deeply rooted in Shorin Ryu and the Royal Martial Art Motobu Ryu. For me, the only similarities of the two styles are the Shuri and Tomari background!

[tallgeese]

I'm from outside any established organizational umbrella that's of any size so it's easier for me.

If he's ranked in it, yes, he can teach it. If he's a bb, then he's qualified at some level. Now, will any rank he gives be recognized by certain bodies? mybe or maybe not. But as long as he's passing along good info, why not?

[Tiger1962]

My opinion is this:

Although the instructor in question might be qualified to teach the style, I believe he should be certified in it before actually training students. While that might seem like a formality to some and perhaps not necessary, I feel that it is - again, it does not matter to me if they are already qualified without that "piece of paper" (as some might view it), I WANT to train under a CERTIFIED & RECOGNIZED instructor.

Would you want a doctor to operate on you if they were qualified but didn't have the diploma or official credentials stating that? Now, I realize a doctor and a martial arts instructor are two different things but if I am paying to learn something as serious as martial arts, I want my instructor to be certified/recognized by the governing Federation/organization of that style.

The other part is, in some martial art styles, you can not advance in rank until you are an official member of their governing headquarters/federation, and pay annual dues. Advancing in rank and ultimately becoming a certified teacher requires paying dues, fees, testing before a board, etc. and so on. Again, not all styles operate by these methods but some do.

[JusticeZero]

Hmmm... My gut reaction would be that he can teach, but only with the provision that someone who is actually a teacher of said style checks on the student now and then and does any actual rank testing. So, if you only see the sensei of the actual style once every six months, then yeah, but if the sensei stops coming, then they really aught not teach that secondary anymore.

[Grego]

So he teaches Shotokan, but certifies them in his own style, rather than Shotokan?

sounds kinda weird, but he could easily say that he's teaching a "shotokan hybrid" that he could certify on his own.