Double arm block in Heian Sandan

[sensei8]

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Chances are I am wrong, but if I remember correctly TheHightlander is just starting out on his/her journey, so to me its all about keeping it "actual"; simply learning the solid platform of embusen onto which he/she can build

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This is true. I had class again Sat. and talked to the asst. Sensei. he has been doing a lot of bunkai applications in his classes, so he has had that on the mind. He was showing me another way to look at it, but realizes that I shouldn't be thinking too much about that yet, and should learn how the kata really is - with the block.

In this, I concur again. The role of instructor at the beginning stages of Kata is to learn the techniques within the Kata properly. To learn the proper order of what goes where over why a certain thing is being done. As the student matures, then, when time is proper and correct; teach Bunkai and even then, teach Oyo Bunkai as the student matures in the Bunkai.

Teach the Kata to beginning students as well as when learning a Kata for the first time, as 'it' might appear. Teach the kick as a kick! Teach the punch as a punch! Teach the block as a block! Teach the strike as a strike! Teach stance as a stance! Teach posture as posture! This is paramount to learning a Kata for its first time until the student matures in the Kata/Kihon.

Naturally, an incompetent instructor leads to poor class results. In the long term, this may frustrate students for they're generally not able yet to identify and correct the errors they make.

[TheHighlander]

OK, so I have another question on the Heian Sandan kata (Of course, I think of these on days where I don't have class - I think about these things when practicing on my own)

In the middle of the kata, there is a knee raise (don't know the japanese term). I have seen videos where some do a snap or crescent kick, but our school just does the knee raise.

Again, is this intended to be a block (with the shin, maybe?) or a knee strike. It feels like it should be a knee strike.

[Wa-No-Michi]

OK, so I have another question on the Heian Sandan kata (Of course, I think of these on days where I don't have class - I think about these things when practicing on my own)

In the middle of the kata, there is a knee raise (don't know the japanese term). I have seen videos where some do a snap or crescent kick, but our school just does the knee raise.

Again, is this intended to be a block (with the shin, maybe?) or a knee strike. It feels like it should be a knee strike.

In the pinan versions as practiced in Wado-ryu we do not perform the rising knee (or Hiza age), so I will bow to Sensei8 superior knowledge here.

If we did do it though, at a stab, I would say that it is pulling your leg out of the way of a kick / sweep. Then dropping into Shiko-dachi / Kiba-dachi.

Again open to interpretation - but I like your senseis approach.

WNM

[Killer Miller]

Being that you are Shotokan, it would be a stomp to the knee area when opponent is stepping with front stance, or it can be used as a sweeping type of block with the foot if the oponent is front kicking, then following up with the oponent's punch being blocked with your elbow and then back-fist strike to the nose area.

- Killer -

OK, so I have another question on the Heian Sandan kata (Of course, I think of these on days where I don't have class - I think about these things when practicing on my own)

In the middle of the kata, there is a knee raise (don't know the japanese term). I have seen videos where some do a snap or crescent kick, but our school just does the knee raise.

Again, is this intended to be a block (with the shin, maybe?) or a knee strike. It feels like it should be a knee strike.

[TheHighlander]

Being that you are Shotokan, it would be a stomp to the knee area when opponent is stepping with front stance, or it can be used as a sweeping type of block with the foot if the oponent is front kicking, then following up with the oponent's punch being blocked with your elbow and then back-fist strike to the nose area.

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Yes, it is definitely taught to be a stomp and then block with the elbow. The Sensei had us really try to drive the knee up - that is why I was thinking strike. It was probably intended to make sure we aren't lazy about it and to get the knee high enough to stomp the knee.

Thanks Killer

[Killer Miller]

You have to get the knee up really high to have enough downward force on the stomp. That is why the focus on bringing the knee up... Also, they are ensuring that the knee is coming up and not the entire leg trying to come up and then down (meaning an extended leg which is incorrect) - which is very bad for the knee joint and can cause excessive bone/joint damage if the leg is extended at all and not the knee coil up instead....

- Killer -

[JoiH]

Did someone say Bunkai?

Because Bunkai is an interpretation belonging to THAT practitioner alone. Whether it's a shared believe between practitioners is another thing, imho.

I totally agree. I was always taught that Bunkai is the individual's interpretation of the moves. Just my 2 cents

[Shizentai]

OK, so I have another question on the Heian Sandan kata (Of course, I think of these on days where I don't have class - I think about these things when practicing on my own)

In the middle of the kata, there is a knee raise (don't know the japanese term). I have seen videos where some do a snap or crescent kick, but our school just does the knee raise.

Again, is this intended to be a block (with the shin, maybe?) or a knee strike. It feels like it should be a knee strike.

I have traveled a bit with my karate and I find that there are certain kata moves about which even students of the same sensei disagree. Thankfully, your question of a knee raise is not the worst of the bunch. However, my experience is that certain organizations vary in terms of what is considered correct with this.

I know that at least schools of the JKA, ISKF, & ITKF teach that lifting the knee in front and then stepping straight down is correct. In fact, this is the way I was taught. However, I have also met some American karate organization members who insist that this was meant to be a crescent kick. Oddly enough, I've also met an SKIF member who felt it was a crescent as well... though I'm pretty sure that their founder, Kanazawa sensei doesn't do it that way.

I know it's easier if someone just says "do this" or "do that" but hopefully the above will be of more help to you in the long run.

As for the distinction between kata technique and kata application goes, I was always told that any particular kata has MANY different applications, which is why it is so useful to practice. Training kata helps improve muscle memory of various different techniques at the same time!

...unfortunately, that means that application arguments tend to go on and on forever @_@.

[bushido_man96]

It tends to be an explanation of the technique more or less exactly how it appears when performed in the kata. So blocks can be strikes, chokes, throws etc etc, but it is demonstrated exactly how the technique would be performed whilst doing the kata. This allows the karate-ka to visualise their karate whilst performing the kata and to give it intent / purpose so it does not become igata perhaps.

This is different to Bunkai as I understand it, as Bunkai is a defined process of dissecting and rebuilding into something else.

WNM

In reading this, I kind of see where you don't necessarily go along with the processes of someone like Abernethy or Anslow in deciphering the bunkai of katas.....am I close?

[bushido_man96]

Teach the Kata to beginning students as well as when learning a Kata for the first time, as 'it' might appear. Teach the kick as a kick! Teach the punch as a punch! Teach the block as a block! Teach the strike as a strike! Teach stance as a stance! Teach posture as posture! This is paramount to learning a Kata for its first time until the student matures in the Kata/Kihon.

So.....if this is the case in teaching, and if bunkai is supposed to relate to the self-defense applications of the katas, then does this affect when you start to teach actual self-defense applications?