The kata topic

[granitemiller]

But doesn't Jiyu Kumite, as well as ippon kumite, still have rules? I don't think anyone in class would throw an elbow strike at another's face full force intending to seriously injure the other, would they? So when you step out of a kata, you are basically stepping out of training for life/death situational training, and stepping into a rules based situational training, which is what sparring is.

[Espina]

I think you have an interesting point there, granitemiller.

For example, Kumite no Kata sono Ich in Ashihara ends breaking the opponent's neck, thus causing him death.

When you practice kumite with your Dojo mates, you definitely aren't looking to kill any of them, so this particular movement does not apply, but the rest does.

I mean, Katas try to emulate a real fight (ones more than others, of course) and therefore what matters is to take out opponents as fast and as efficient as possible.

When you practice kumite you are not trying save your life, but improve your skills through practice

[granitemiller]

Yes, I agree. Kumite improves your skills by applying them against a non-cooperative partner who is also trying to hit/score on you.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Jiyu Kumite is free fighting. At its purest level it literally means no holds barred.

Do not confuse Jiyu Kumite with Shiai Kumite, which is competition fighting bound by rules.

The Kumite that you should be aspiring to is more about freeing the mind and therefore body movement.

Being able to act and react instinctively to any given scenario.

Stepping out of Kata isn't easy, as it takes you out of your comfort zone, but there comes a point where you have to do it if you want your karate to work for you.

WNM

[Espina]

I really like the training kumite (where you fight with your mates, but without wanting to knock them down)

[bushido_man96]

The danger of training in Kata Bunkai is that if you are not careful, all you create is another kata - albeit a paired kata.

That not a bad thing necessarily, but it is not stepping out of the kata (as a mind set) either.

And to realise the potential of kata you must train to do this. You can not understand how to do it from a book.

I'm a bit confused by what you are saying here, WNM. I don't quite understand what you are getting at; could you elaborate a bit more for me, please?

1. Kihon (moving basics/line work) = Kata

2. Solo Kata ie Pinan Nidan etc = Kata

3. Yakusoku Kumite (pre-arranged sparing/pair work) = Kata

If, by the utilising the process Bunkai, you break out techniques from the kata, develop them into fighting techniques that you then drill with a partner, what you are in fact doing is creating another type 3 Kata.

4. Jiyu Kumite (free fighting) - is NOT kata.

To transit between 1,2,3 and then onto 4 you must "step out of the kata".

I have to go teach now, but I will try to write some more later when I get back, because it is a very important subject to me - and not one that is easy to grasp.

WNM

That helps clear things up a bit. Thank you, WNM.

[Traymond]

I think you misunderstand me.

Creating another kata from the practice of Kata bunkai has nothing to do with style.

Hmmm what I meant was that, if you learn goju ryu kata from goju ryu practicitoner it will be 100% goju ryu, but it you learn goju ryu kata from uechi Ryu master it is not 100% goju ryu. So it almost turns into a different kata because the bunkai and the whole movements in general turn to be UEchi Ryu styled than Goju ryu, and if you go to a Goju Ryu only Tournament and you do the goju ryu kata taught by your uechi Ryu Sensei it will not be the "same". similar yes, but same no...thats how I figured you were stating it, haha. But maybe not.

[Kuma]

I think you misunderstand me.

Creating another kata from the practice of Kata bunkai has nothing to do with style.

Hmmm what I meant was that, if you learn goju ryu kata from goju ryu practicitoner it will be 100% goju ryu, but it you learn goju ryu kata from uechi Ryu master it is not 100% goju ryu. So it almost turns into a different kata because the bunkai and the whole movements in general turn to be UEchi Ryu styled than Goju ryu, and if you go to a Goju Ryu only Tournament and you do the goju ryu kata taught by your uechi Ryu Sensei it will not be the "same". similar yes, but same no...thats how I figured you were stating it, haha. But maybe not.

I dunno if that's such a good comparison as Uechi Ryu has kata different from Goju, not to mention the kata they do share are executed in a different manner.

Compare Sanchin kata in Goju to Uechi and you'll see the difference.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1070562260918624443&ei=wMzMSZu8L42grwLiuYS5Cw&q=sanchin+kata+goju&hl=en&client=firefox-a

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2311791963008270920&ei=cs3MSfOACoKwrALxsIWhCw&q=sanchin+kata+uechi&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Sure there are similar movements, but from execution you can tell that they come from two different mindsets. Kata is kata however, and getting good at one kind of Sanchin kata will help you progress much faster in the other.

[Traymond]

I think you misunderstand me.

Creating another kata from the practice of Kata bunkai has nothing to do with style.

Hmmm what I meant was that, if you learn goju ryu kata from goju ryu practicitoner it will be 100% goju ryu, but it you learn goju ryu kata from uechi Ryu master it is not 100% goju ryu. So it almost turns into a different kata because the bunkai and the whole movements in general turn to be UEchi Ryu styled than Goju ryu, and if you go to a Goju Ryu only Tournament and you do the goju ryu kata taught by your uechi Ryu Sensei it will not be the "same". similar yes, but same no...thats how I figured you were stating it, haha. But maybe not.

I dunno if that's such a good comparison as Uechi Ryu has kata different from Goju, not to mention the kata they do share are executed in a different manner.

Compare Sanchin kata in Goju to Uechi and you'll see the difference.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1070562260918624443&ei=wMzMSZu8L42grwLiuYS5Cw&q=sanchin+kata+goju&hl=en&client=firefox-a

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2311791963008270920&ei=cs3MSfOACoKwrALxsIWhCw&q=sanchin+kata+uechi&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Sure there are similar movements, but from execution you can tell that they come from two different mindsets. Kata is kata however, and getting good at one kind of Sanchin kata will help you progress much faster in the other.

I meant that a Uechi Practicioner doing a kata such as Sepai, while goju ryu does sepai, its both Goju Ryu kata, but when Uechi Ryu does it, it will have more of a uechi influence.

[Kuma]

Ahh, okay. That's true. I think there's a lot of benefit though to practicing within that system's philosophy for the kata though. When I was cross-training with a friend of mine who trains in Uechi Ryu, we had a lot of fun comparing and contrasting our Sanchin kata. While Goju's tends to be a bit slower, Uechi's was a bit more dynamic, for example. We both got something out of each other's approach though, so now I like to train in both kinds of ways whenever I do Sanchin.