The kata topic

[RW]

What is the purpose of Kata? What is the benefit on practicing them?

[tallgeese]

This is a pretty loaded topic and people tend to have strong feelings one way or the other.

The idea of kata, as I understand it, was that it was not an imaginary fight but more of a text book for striking areas and tools that one could employ. Often complete movements were not constructed together and were difficult to interperate without guidance. Old kata bunkai were rarely obvious.

Now, most of the moern era katas were designed with specific movments in mind and tend to string combinations of movements together. How useful or applicable they are tend to be based on the art and instructor.

The benift is where you'll get heated debate. Personally, and this is just me, I don't do them or teach them. We live in a society where we can practice ms's openly. Any time spent memorizing kata can be, in my mind only, better spent actully practicing and repping movments in more practical drills. Additionally, you have to look at what the movements are, are they even useble? Are you with an instructor teaching the old forms? Does he know the bunkai to the movements of the pattern?

If they are known, why not practice them in a more realistic fashoin?

Now, that's just from my perspective. I have limited time to train, and I want to focus on more "live" practice and I'd rather train newer people via other drills. Now, if you're in ma's for diferent reason and preservation of old way and tradition are part of those reasons, then doing them is much more important to you. That's not less valid, it's just a differnt reason or set of reasons for training. That's all.

It's a good questin to revist every so often to get new imput into it. Just expect fairly strong opinions both ways.

[Kuma]

My point of view warrants a bit of background.

During my last yearlong deployment to Iraq, I focused a lot on kata, specifically Sanchin kata. As per some words of wisdom I had read, it was advised for karate fighters to practice Sanchin kata 3 times a day, every day. So I focused extensively on Sanchin, and a good bit on the others I knew. One of the books I used a lot was "The Way of Sanchin Kata", which had a great quote in it (rough idea only, not a direct quote):

"Sanchin kata teaches you the mechanics behind the fight. The other kata teach you the content of a fight."

By training hard on Sanchin kata, I've noticed I've developed better balance, body mechanics, footwork, breathing, muscular endurance, and power. All things important to any karateka.

I personally feel that without kata, karate is just kickboxing. All of the greats that I truly respect and admire do lots and lots of kata, compared to the average MAist who does it rarely and you can see the huge difference in skill and understanding.

Kata is one of the "three K's" of karate (the other two being kihon and kumite). With only two of the K's, all you have is a straight line that will fall over. But with the three K's, you have a solid foundation that can help you reach the top.

[JohnKeats]

Although it is still early in my karate road, I have quite a fond view of kata. I enjoy practicing them, and I feel they help with movement and strength. More or less I agree (and find it a good way to state it) with what Kuma said above.

[bushido_man96]

One of the books I used a lot was "The Way of Sanchin Kata"

Good book. I have read it, and although I don't do Sanchin kata, I learned quite a bit from the book.

The purpose of katas, and the benefits that they provide, differ from style to style, like tallgeese mentioned. When I was in the ATA, the forms didn't have any seperate bunkai to them. However, the forms were used to develop specific levels of technique per the rank of the form. Also, every move repeated on each side, so that both sides got the same amount of attention.

The forms I do now aren't as elaborate as the ATA forms are, but they are still good for developing technique and power in technique. And although I have found some reading material that demonstrates possible bunkai (called Hae Sul in Korean) for the forms I do, our school doesn't utilize them.

I follow along the same lines as tallgeese does when it comes to forms practice. However, I have always enjoyed doing forms, especially for competition. I like the technical challenge that they present for me. However, I would like to take the time to spend on forms and the applications thereof, instead of just developing technical skill. But like tallgeese mentioned, if you can develop the self-defense skills without having to learn a form, then why not spend your time on the applications instead?

To plug one of my own writings, you can take a look at this article on some of the aspects that can come out of forms/kata training: What Forms Are Good For.

[Killer Miller]

1. When MA was outlawed, they practiced MA in the form of a classical dance - called Kata. It was their way to still train and not be classified as MA.

2. Kata is a series of movements or techniques used against one or more imanginary opponents - thus, the Bunkai of Kata...

- Killer -

[Wa-No-Michi]

Maybe to understand the purpose of kata, you have to understand what Kata is in the first place?

As far as I can fathom out; the word "kata" crops up quite frequently as part of the Japanese pedagogy for training in many art forms.

It is in no way exclusive to Karate or martial arts for that matter - The Famous Japanese tea ceremony for example is known to use the process of Kata.

Ask two different (western) martial artists the same question and you are likely to get different answer, maybe because the word doesn't translate literally too well. "Form", "Set" get close but they lack something imo.

Also Traditional Karate training is all things to all people - what you get out of your Kata training now may be different in twenty years time.

That’s the beauty of training in Kata maybe

WNM

[Kuma]

Maybe to understand the purpose of kata, you have to understand what Kata is in the first place?

As far as I can fathom out; the word "kata" crops up quite frequently as part of the Japanese pedagogy for training in many art forms.

It is in no way exclusive to Karate or martial arts for that matter - The Famous Japanese tea ceremony for example is known to use the process of Kata.

Ask two different (western) martial artists the same question and you are likely to get different answer, maybe because the word doesn't translate literally too well. "Form", "Set" get close but they lack something imo.

Also Traditional Karate training is all things to all people - what you get out of your Kata training now may be different in twenty years time.

That’s the beauty of training in Kata maybe

WNM

I believe it's in some of Funakoshi's first books, but you can also see some kata referred to as "styles", which might be a bit of an idea as to what they were originally seen as. Possibly, rather than being a set pattern you actually "use" against others, it could instead just be a collection of a system's techniques put into one easy rote way of learning.

[bushido_man96]

I believe it's in some of Funakoshi's first books, but you can also see some kata referred to as "styles", which might be a bit of an idea as to what they were originally seen as. Possibly, rather than being a set pattern you actually "use" against others, it could instead just be a collection of a system's techniques put into one easy rote way of learning.

I think that the idea of using the word style to refer to kata came from the time when it wasn't unusual to learn just one kata from a master, spend your training time on it, and the applications found therein. Abernethy has spoken about the probabilities of this.

[Kruczek]

1. When MA was outlawed, they practiced MA in the form of a classical dance - called Kata. It was their way to still train and not be classified as MA.

2. Kata is a series of movements or techniques used against one or more imanginary opponents - thus, the Bunkai of Kata...

- Killer -

To your first point - I agree 100%

On the second point. I personally believe that kata is NOT bunkai, but a way to help remember and practice so that you can do bunkai. The movements in kata should not be taken as a literal fight but as a dance to help you remember concepts in fighting.

Hope that makes sense?