Is today's Karate representative of the original concept?

[RW]

We all know karate has knee techniques, elbow techniques, etc. However, ask people and they will tell you "the only MA that uses elbows/knees is muay thai" (an incorrect statement).

Thing is, karate sparring, kumite, etc does not use knees, elbows, throws, etc, some techniques that exist in Karate but that somehow appear to be relegated to a vestigial status in some katas.

How was the kumite criteria developed? Is today's karate far from its original concept?

[tallgeese]

Different sects of karate will have different styles of sparring, some will allow both knees and elos and other weapons as well. Some schools will vary within the same art depending on their focus. YOu'd probilby be suprised at how many do allow it in some form.

Additionally, differnt types of sparring within training cycles might included them for wroking on certain tools or situations. It just depends.

Still, you're probibly right about the majority of schools treatment of some very effective weapons. It's my understanding that the big sparring push came from Funikoshi in Shotokan. As to deliate how he came up with the specific regime and how it's evolved from there the ShotoKan guys on the site will probibly have better historical insight.

[bushido_man96]

I think that the main issue is a safety concern. Elbows can be really nasty tools, and can cause cuts along with concussions. It will also depend on the school/style, too. Kyokushin styles tend to allow the usage of the knee strike, but not the elbow. Some styles will also allow sweeps to be used in sparring.

The sparring is not as likely to be as indicative of the "original concept" as the applications of the katas are to be. But, these applications are trained in a controlled manner, and sparring is a less controlled environment.

[granitemiller]

In the study of the bunkai of katas, you will find numerous stikes, throws, clinches, etc, which hold fast to the original concepts.

Kumite is more or less a sport in that it has rules so that you can practice executing techniques without seriously harming your partner. Therefore, many different rules have developed for different systems.

[Espina]

Ashihara uses elbows and knees... In fact, they are even used on almost every kata.

They are also used in Kumite. Elbows can hit everything but the face, and knees can hit absolutely every part of the body (except for the crouch, obviously)

[Toptomcat]

What 'original concepts?'

What your instructor had in mind? What your instructor's instructor had in mind? What the founder of your substyle had in mind? What Funakoshi, Itoshi, and the rest of the 20s-30s pioneers of karate had in mind? What the teachers of the Shuri-te, Tomari-te, and Naha-te had in mind? What the teachers of White Crane had in mind? What Bodhidharma had in mind?

It just doesn't work to think that way. It's turtles all the way down.

Worrying about whether or not your karate resembles what was being taught long ago is far less productive than seeing to it that your karate is as effective and powerful as you can make it.

[granitemiller]

It is too simple to to make such a general statement like that.

[Espina]

what do you mean miller? I'm not sure I quite understood you

[bushido_man96]

What 'original concepts?'

What your instructor had in mind? What your instructor's instructor had in mind? What the founder of your substyle had in mind? What Funakoshi, Itoshi, and the rest of the 20s-30s pioneers of karate had in mind? What the teachers of the Shuri-te, Tomari-te, and Naha-te had in mind? What the teachers of White Crane had in mind? What Bodhidharma had in mind?

It just doesn't work to think that way. It's turtles all the way down.

Worrying about whether or not your karate resembles what was being taught long ago is far less productive than seeing to it that your karate is as effective and powerful as you can make it.

It is too simple to to make such a general statement like that.

If you are reffering to the above, I don't really think that it is too simple. In the end, it is what it is. Instead of worrying about if we are doing the same thing that a gentleman that lived in the 1600s is doing, we should be focused on whether or not what we are doing now is going to work for us.

[granitemiller]

It is a mixture of both. The originator spent much more time examining and creating the moves then we realize. We live in a much too fast paced world, where everything is now now now. We also feel we are vastly superior to our past generations in all aspects.

My point is that someone in the 1600's, or 1800's, spent a great deal of time creating these kata, and they are very intricate and sophisticated, if you take the time to really study them (for example: Tekki is NOT about someone riding a horse or standing in a rice field - study the bunkai and see how devastating it really is!), you will see just how genius these old timers were. They fought for real, it was life or death back then, which is a point I think we miss. In addition, there are just so many ways you can take someone who grabs you, strike them and throw them to the ground. Why do we assume we know better?

Are we able to come up with something else, something better for this day and age? Absolutely. And we should be doing this! I am not stating that we are inept and can not come up with our own items for the here and now.

However, we need to honor the past and also really learn what our past masters meant to pass down to us by diligently studying bunkai. If you have ever created a form, and really put time and energy into it (and not just make up something on a whim), you will understand more about what I am trying to say. I think that TTC just made a quick comment on my post and really did not think about it much. I am saying that we need to really learn what was passed down, and the "original concepts" are encapsulated within the katas.