Sizing up the competition.

[JusticeZero]

I do think that it is important to have an unrehearsed tactical drill of some sort; however, I think that "sparring" in the way one sees has entirely too many flaws.

If sparring is focused as a drill for specific purposes, without a sporting, competitive aspect, it is a good drill. If it is presented in a way that it is not seen as combat, with more realistic scenario and armored attacker drills used to prepare for fighting, it's a good drill. Just jumping in a ring and touch sparring though, very rapidly becomes very counter-productive. Sportive sparring greatly rewards a large number of strategies and habits which are deeply counter to SD effectiveness; an extremely effective fighting-prepared fighter will lose every time to a sport-playing touch tag player at a much lower level in a "sparring match".

My art has something like sparring/randori which it is heavily focused on. It is speed-modulated instead of power-modulated, and furthermore, it does not "feel" like a fight; while it has a bit of an adrenaline dump to learn to use, the student still understands at all levels that a fight will be different and will not blur a sportive touch sparring match's protective rules into a self defence attack.

Edited May 3, 2009 by JusticeZero

[Throwdown0850]

I do think that it is important to have an unrehearsed tactical drill of some sort; however, I think that "sparring" in the way one sees has entirely too many flaws.

If sparring is focused as a drill for specific purposes, without a sporting, competitive aspect, it is a good drill. If it is presented in a way that it is not seen as combat, with more realistic scenario and armored attacker drills used to prepare for fighting, it's a good drill. Just jumping in a ring and touch sparring though, very rapidly becomes very counter-productive. Sportive sparring greatly rewards a large number of strategies and habits which are deeply counter to SD effectiveness; an extremely effective fighting-prepared fighter will lose every time to a sport-playing touch tag player at a much lower level in a "sparring match".

My art has something like sparring/randori which it is heavily focused on. It is speed-modulated instead of power-modulated, and furthermore, it does not "feel" like a fight; while it has a bit of an adrenaline dump to learn to use, the student still understands at all levels that a fight will be different and will not blur a sportive touch sparring match's protective rules into a self defence attack.

by sparring I meant full contact. not "tag" as you put it. nothing will ever be better than the real thing.

[JusticeZero]

I will also add that the combinations we do, at a lowish-intermediate level, I was taught to include referring to defense holes; students are instructed that if any of the common holes in defense or timing appear during the drill, that the other person should exploit them; the one making the mistake is still expected to defend against the 'off-book' attack. That's well within the realm of "form practice" in my interpretation.

There are limits to 'full contact sparring". Using full force all the time does tend to break and wear down training partners rapidly, and one still is limited. I will note that, for instance, I do not necessarily consider Judo randori in the same category as "sparring". It is presented sportively rather than as "This is like fighting!" and the structure modulates that force in a way that supports the stylists in wielding their power unrestrained, without breaking their training partners in the process.

If one is in a fight, they are trying to break their attacker and render them incapable of attacking, not merely batter them. There is only so much pounding that a person can sustain, and there really needs to be some way to accomodate that paradox and preserve the fighters without raising unrealistic expectations in them. Anything presented as "like a fight" needs to be non-competitive; anything that is competitive needs to not seem like a fight. If the two are mixed, then either people at the school are ending up in the hospital, or bad habits are being ingrained.

[Throwdown0850]

I will also add that the combinations we do, at a lowish-intermediate level, I was taught to include referring to defense holes; students are instructed that if any of the common holes in defense or timing appear during the drill, that the other person should exploit them; the one making the mistake is still expected to defend against the 'off-book' attack. That's well within the realm of "form practice" in my interpretation.

There are limits to 'full contact sparring". Using full force all the time does tend to break and wear down training partners rapidly, and one still is limited. I will note that, for instance, I do not necessarily consider Judo randori in the same category as "sparring". It is presented sportively rather than as "This is like fighting!" and the structure modulates that force in a way that supports the stylists in wielding their power unrestrained, without breaking their training partners in the process.

If one is in a fight, they are trying to break their attacker and render them incapable of attacking, not merely batter them. There is only so much pounding that a person can sustain, and there really needs to be some way to accomodate that paradox and preserve the fighters without raising unrealistic expectations in them. Anything presented as "like a fight" needs to be non-competitive; anything that is competitive needs to not seem like a fight. If the two are mixed, then either people at the school are ending up in the hospital, or bad habits are being ingrained.

I dont have to fight the way the opponent wants me to. I can batter if I want. I just defend myself by what is thrown at me. I am more of a defensive fighter I guess.

[JusticeZero]

We train a lot of techniques not unlike the kick at 0:30

If we were to clobber each other in the head with wide-base full-body kicks on a regular basis, we would have some medical issues. If you're trying to elicit a realistic combat response in your training partner, you need to be spending all your attention trying to protect yourself from the storm you are calling down, not on trying to score. If you're trying to duel for training, that's a good skillbuilder, but it's not a fight simulation, and it runs danger of adapting the art to the drill, rather than of using the drill to gain skill.

[bushido_man96]

To steer off the coversation here a bit, that was one HECK of a kick!

[Throwdown0850]

To steer off the coversation here a bit, that was one HECK of a kick!

wow. yes it was!

[JusticeZero]

Which part?

[tallgeese]

I agree that you can't be trhowing anything full contact all the time. But training against a fully resistive opponant, as is often done in sparring, is critical to acutally preparing to fight against one in the street. There's no better training for adaptive response to aggression than sparring.

How sparring is done can be debated, but you can't play it down too far in the grand scheme of training modalities.

[Throwdown0850]

Which part?

um.... the video that YOU posted, the KO at the end??