"Not all Martial Artists are honorable..."

[Tiger1962]

Most of the guys I work with are adults with their own set of values and charater already established. They're on the mat to train for conflict. Not develop any sort of internal goals.

This just about sums it up for me.

[bushido_man96]

Character is VERY important in martial arts.

If you look throughout history, the Warrior-caste has always been bound by a code of behavior. Samurai followed Bushido, European Knights followed Chivalry.

Even today, the US Army has the "Army Values"

The reasoning behind this is that we teach potentially deadly techniques. We don't want thugs and criminals to know them. That is why improving your character should be so important.

This has more to do with use-of-force continuums and what sensei8 referred to as proportional response, and not as much to do with character development. You can observe these things, but you still don't have to be a nice person. Someone can be rude and obnoxious, but likely never harbor any ill will towards anyone, or cause any physical pain to anyone by hurting them.

Martial arts are not about fighting. They are about self-defense and self-improvement.

I don't think that this should be the rote definition of what a Martial Art is. It is an opinion and philosophy of many practitioners, and that's cool. But it shouldn't be viewed as a blanket terminology for what the Martial Arts are about.

Some martial arts practitioners strive to be outstanding community people, that's their agenda. They want to be worshipped as "heroes". Some want to emulate their instructor almost obsessively and want to "be like their teacher" in every way possible thereby forgetting "who THEY are" as individuals. (I call these people martial arts groupies" and most of the time it's the young adults who are like this). Some think that their m.a. instructor is perfect and can do no wrong, no matter what -- they are so blinded by hero worship & naive loyalty that they fail to see that their instructor is a human being with character flaws, emotions, and makes mistakes and judgment errors just like everyone else does. If someone wants a role model, there are plenty to choose from besides martial artists.

I think that there is a lot truth spoken here, Tiger. I agree with the fact that not everyone has the time to devote to community and school-related projects. The Aikido club that I attend does a lot things to try to raise club funds, etc, and they like to have the members help out. I just don't have the time for it, as I have my own family to focus on.

Let's also not forget that most of the concepts we have of chivalry and bushido affected fighting men of the time are largely romantic in nature. While they were in place at the time, let's not forget that these men were primarily concerned with warfare.

Agreed. There are stories of Samurai that abused their power. You just don't here them that often, because eveyone likes to focus on the romantic aspects of those times. The Knights of Europe were not infallible, either.

[sensei8]

Brian, I concur wholehearedly with your opening post!

Any Martial Artist, imho, that self-promotes themselves are dishonorable in every shape, way, and/or form!

Honor and integrity go hand in hand. If one's last promotion was to 8th Dan, for example, then that practitioner should remain a 8th Dan, therefore, be proud of that.

Imagine a Doctor having been an M.D. for a while and then this Doctor decides that it would be better if he self-promoted himself to a PhD.

Well, both the self promoting Doctor as well as the self promoting Martail Artist can do that; but both would be meaningless. The Doctor would go to jail while the Martial Artist would just start his/her own style and make themself Grand Master.

Something sucks about that! That Martial Artist should be sharing the same jail cell with that Doctor!

Honor is something that must be taught, and it's a teachable thing, in the Martial Arts, but, imho, this must be taught first in the home; from dad/mom.

IMHO!

[Scott_LIFE180]

I will admit that I did not read the etire post, it isn't my usual style but I felt I needed to say this real quick.

As a US Marine and in light of the training I received in boot camp, I would respectfully disagree and say that it is the role of a teacher, be they a Drill Instructor or a MA Instructor, to not only teach their primary subject but to also give instruction on internal personal development.

In boot camp it was called Marine Corps Vaules. In the school that I learn and work in, as a Christian outreach program, these developments are two fold, the first and most prominent is our Bible study, the second and less prominent is the life skills that we teach. We teach life skills by focusing on one particular attribute a month. Last month it was Team Work, this month it is Discipline and little hip pocket classes are given on these attributes.

Granted we are working with children almost all the time so these values need to be instilled in the children while they are young, as it is hard to do that when they are adults already.

However the Corps does try and in general does a good job of it. Don't get me wrong, we Jarheads can be the antithisis of value if we let ourselves. So, no we are not perfect, but this isn't about perfection it is about trying.

So, however you look at it, it is my view that an instructor has the responcibility to teach not only their subject matter but also to teach good life values.

[bushido_man96]

In boot camp it was called Marine Corps Vaules.

I am not against this. In fact, seeing as being a Marine basically makes you a representative of the armed forces, then it would behoove them to attempt to make people realize that if they screw up, it can make the Corps look bad. And if MA schools want to take this route, too, then I don't have a problem with it. But I don't think it should be the guiding force behind learning the Martial Arts.

In the school that I learn and work in, as a Christian outreach program, these developments are two fold, the first and most prominent is our Bible study, the second and less prominent is the life skills that we teach. We teach life skills by focusing on one particular attribute a month. Last month it was Team Work, this month it is Discipline and little hip pocket classes are given on these attributes.

As you point out here, we try to begin early on teaching these values to society through our children. I think that this is a more appropriate avenue than trying to accomplish it through training at a Martial Arts school.

[Scott_LIFE180]

As you point out here, we try to begin early on teaching these values to society through our children. I think that this is a more appropriate avenue than trying to accomplish it through training at a Martial Arts school.

Ohh absolutly, it begins in the home. I totally agree. The MA school is not where it should begin.

[JusticeZero]

My question is, why is the Japanese master always considered right? This is what I refer to as the "Eastern bias" when looking at Martial Arts in general. Many people tend to think that the MAs only come from the far East, whereas in fact, the Martial Arts have been a part of every culture to have existed in the world. Just because later generations of Japanese masters made the transition to their Martial Arts becoming "living ways," does not mean that it crosses the line to every culture, and every Martial Art that is out there.

there are more ways to make them "living ways" or whatever, too. I mean, my art integrates into life. It does so in a very different way, though, with moral teachings which most would consider less than noble, and a structure well suiting its checkered origins.

Traditional training will always have an advantage over modern UFC-like training just because it wasn't meant to be for TV, or anyone else. It was meant to be for you, and eventually you would become wise enough to give it to your students.

Hmm, let's see if I can put together a sort've "ancient time" portrayal of MY very traditional art..

There wasn't any TV, and if there was, you couldn't afford one because you were probably either an unemployable ne'er-do-well or a bottom-class laborer; now and then you run into some guys from the 'hood who you only know by their nicknames, so you can't rat them out. One of the guys everyone thinks is one sly, slippery dude they call Slick busts out some music on whatever they have around and you have a bit of a spar with your buds, trading notes on the neat move that Dog-Face pulled to put a couple of cops in the hospital last week. Meanwhile, Slick keeps an eye on everything so things don't get out of control, plays tunes to give you all advise and snarky commentary, and watches for the cops in case they come try to bust you all up to see how many outstanding arrest warrants they can match with you all, even if they have to make a couple up on the spot. One day Slick says, "You seem like you've got a good pair of eyes on you, you play a pretty tight game, you don't even trust your own mom, and you can con your way out of trouble real nice; lemme show you some tricks of the trade and i'll let people know that you're cool to start running some of our little sessions."

Would you say that that's "superior" to the upbringing of an MMA fighter, then? Since it's in no way clear what you consider 'superior' to look like exactly. I mean, is it 'superior' because your teacher gives you lots of philosophy and ethics? We have that in spades. Are we actually certain that MMA does not give positive life lessons? All the other euro arts seem to stress hard work and fairness to varying degrees. One book I read (Meditations on Violence, I think) attributed to an Asian style's teacher the quote "The dead guy doesn't get to go to church." when asked about life lessons and the like in the art. The whole "We must teach wisdom and philosophy with our kicks and punches" thing hardly seems like a constant, nor a defining factor in eastern, or any, martial arts. Honestly it seems more cultic than effective. I did not train to make anyone a better person, just a safer, dangerous, and more effective one. Why should they look at me for moral guidance? Am I inherently more moral and honorable than their religious leaders because I know how to kick people in the face? I'm a teacher, not a preacher.

[Throwdown0850]

None from here.

I agree, ma's are about fighting. For me, that 's pretty much the end of the story. Any charater enhancment that occurs is primarily of a secondary nature. As I stated somewhere else, often thru humbling encounters on the floor.

There are guys with great integrety that do ma's, guys with little that are very good, and som with high levels of honor who occassionally do dumb things. We're just as far around that territory as the rest of mankind.

I agree. I am there to learn to fight. period.

[Espina]

I agree with you

Martial arts is about fighting...alot of it...But I think that your personal characteristics should from from within your home...your own morals, and those morals should just be complimented by martial arts.

[TheArtofDave]

Actually fighting is only half of it. You're learning the self defense but with the idea that you'll never have to use it. It's just for extreme emergencies only, and I stress that heavily.

Martial Arts is actually about internal conflict. What drives you to even be interested in them. Not the social locales, or international Holly Wood corporate machine that wants your money to push out more movies you can initially frown at.

You're overcoming yourself. It's a self discipline, that also increases your health, reduces stress, and some people say it can add years to your life. You're taught to be an example for your art. To respect yourself, and other people.

While its true not all Martial Artists are honorable. "We" who are the honorable martial artists should lead by example.