Views on Sparring

[bushido_man96]

I can't speak to your specific training regimine or your art's training modalities. I can say that sparring, if trained to increase your capacity to impliment tools against a resisting opponant, is very helpful in developing one's ability to defend one's self.

I agree here, but if you take my case, where we work head kicks more than some, and nothing below the belt, there is less of a transition from sparring to self-defense. Also starting at distance, as opposed to mixing that up from time to time, etc.

I go back to my feeling that training against someone actually trying to hit you is high valuable as a tool for training. I'm not sure what bad habits you're refering to unless it's performed poorly. For instance, an understanding of keeping hands up, coving various and unspecified attacks in random order, moving to accomidate unexpected manuvers by an opponant, and dealing with the adrinilene dump of being hit, are all positives, not negitives. Again, we have to look at how the sparring is being done, and again, we have to look at how it's matching with your training goals.

In the case of Caporiea, I think it is important to look at how things are done in the roda. It is really unique, and they know that in the roda, they are moving against another that is moving like them, with the circles, spins, etc, and that kind of movement won't be the same in rote self-defense, I think.

[JusticeZero]

My main concern is with the distancing and maneuvering in sparring. All the standard sparring I have seen or experienced has involved some sense of having to enter into an opponent who is reluctant to be in combat range, and to tune techniques to adjust for this pursuit; further, the opponent is generally in a rather defensive modality, and using techniques defensively.

Hitting the target generally is followed by some sort of retreat or separation by the target.

Vital strikes cause breaks and are considered fight stoppers.

In the attacks I suffered, these were absolutely not the case; attacks are thrown aggressively by an attacker who continually advanced; the problem was always in creating space, rather than consuming it; strikes to the nose or to the groin, or any other 'painful' point do basically nothing worthwhile.

(I've experienced this from both sides, by the way; i've taken a rather solid thrust heel kick to the groin during a jogo, and the only thing I noticed - after picking myself up because it threw me back against a nearby wall - was 'Oh, I feel a minor dull ache between my legs. Nothing significant enough to pay attention to." I completely shrugged it off and returned with a couple of intricate high kicks and such, completely unfazed. My teacher stopped the match at this point because they were concerned about the hit, and I shrugged and went back to sit down, Maybe thirty seconds after I sat down, once I had time to settle a bit, I got up, walked to the bathroom, and puked my guts out while whimpering. That's not the only time i've been hit in the 'family jewels', and that response is completely typical for me.)

I see a lot of techniques adjusted to 'close the gap' and the like. That's ridiculous. An attacker in the fight structure i've experienced does not stand back and trade long distance blows, they plow into you and press you with a barrage.

I note that you are an LEO. As such, your fights will be more offensive; you are, by your very job, carrying the fight (or potential fight) to the other person. Mine were from the standpoint of being prey, which is a scenario that is often described as a SD scenario; having been in such situations, I found the dynamics of a sparring match to be terribly surreal and absurd.

Defending against an armored attacker, or scenario drills, those I can completely support.

(Edit - added paragraph breaks for legibility)

[Kuma]

I can understand your viewpoints about some individuals being hesitant to move into combat range in sparring. There is also those who spar very aggressively too, however, who as soon as the session starts will constantly be on you and not give any ground. To me, a fighter like this is a blessing (of sorts) as then you learn what it's really like to take on a tough aggressive foe. In most of my experience, unless the individual is skilled and is using distance and timing to his advantage, most of those hesitant to move into combat range are those who aren't comfortable yet sparring. Take it as an opinion, but I think by not sparring you're hindering yourself.

And never underestimate a good kick to the boys. I used to, until I was reading our wall of fallen officers. One of ours actually died because of a solid kick to the groin.

There are situations that warrant offense in the LEO world, you are correct, but most often we tend to be reactive rather than proactive. There are times you can see a guy's getting ready to fight and you can snatch him up and cuff him with minimal fuss. There's also those attacks that come out of nowhere, especially if you don't read body language or quickly judge your opponent less harmless than they are. I've been on both sides of that particular scale.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Kuma

[bushido_man96]

True on the LEO standpoint. Our hands are tied, for the most part, as we can't pre-empt with a strike, so it tends to become a wrestling match or a foot chase really soon.

What I see discussed above is a lot of ring generalship. That isn't as useful in self-defense, as it is in competition, I don't think.

[JusticeZero]

By 'offensive' my meaning was that the one you are going to be tangling with is going to be in a re-active mode responding to your presence, rather than specifically prowling you; I didn't mean to infer that you were going to be attacking suspects.

[bushido_man96]

I know that isn't what you meant. At times, though, when going hands-on, it is in reaction to something that they have done, be it resistance or an attack.

[tallgeese]

Kuma made a comment I agree with ealier about, as far as LEO work goes, you can actually learn or refine quite a bit via sparring. This is espically true if you include rounds that will allow tie ups, joint manip, and takedowns. MMA focues sparring will do this, as will specifically taylored "rule sets".

As to the offensive/defensive terms, I can pretty much see everyone's point. When it comes to mindset, however, defending is something I only do if I'm suprised by an attack. And then it only serves to allow one to survive. At that point, or any point where you become aware of an attack, you need to become offensive. That dosn't mean reckless, it just means that everything severs to allow effective attack. It's a turning of hte switch to "predator" mode.

This is again, the sort of thing that sparring can help condition if crafted correctly.

[ryukasagi]

we generally spar pretty hard with only gloves, gives it a little more realism. I think sparring is really important to give a more realistic view of a fight.

[Grego]

In my school, the only protective gear that adults wear are those little white cloth pads on your knuckles, a mouthpiece, and a cup.

In my experience doing Combatives in the US Army, 60% of what we do is sparring. We'll learn a technique, the pair up and practice it at "combat speed", where your opponent is actively trying to submit you.

To me, kumite is where the art meets the application. Knowing how to perform a move, and knowing when two perform it are two seperate beasts. Sparring is an essential part to developing the art.

[ShoriKid]

Sparring is an important tool in your training. If done correctly. Just like cardio conditioning and weights. If you use them right, they will greatly improve your fighting ability. If you use them incorrectly, then you can get hurt and develope a ton of bad habits with little or no pay off in your fighting.

We spar differently to acomplish different training goals. Some nights it's just for the enjoyment of the contact. Some nights we limit the goals/targets/ranges so we work on particular things. If we spar "to the take down" we are concerned about refining the stand up skills, but we don't want to neglect the clinch range and the ability to take down/defend the take down. If we do "all stand up" we're looking at foot work, angles and combinations more since we aren't worrying over the ground aspect. "Full range", well, you guessed it, we do it all. Out sparring is almost always continuous, except when an instructor steps in to take advantage of a "teachable moment". Now JusticeZero commented on people being too defensive and not aggressive like a real attacker. Unless someone has been told, or has taken it on themselves to work on their defensive tactics, you'll normally see agressive people going right at each other from the start to the finish of a round.

We try to coach/instruct from the sides as well. Getting tunnel vision during a fight can happen. I've mentioned before the trouble of starting out trying to work combinations, or anything else, and then getting caught up in the exchange and the heat of the moment. Getting reminded to get your hands up and your chin down, to circle and end with a kick helps. After a while, your getting reminded to do something different. You learned to keep doing the other things that were being shouted at you.

Ask PitbullJudoka, he'll give up his back on the ground to try to work out of it. I'll let someone take side control, which for some reason I fear more than giving up my back. Stand up wise, I've let someone drive me or tried to work on "retreating" without going in a liniar path. Sometimes it's "all your doing is defending this round unless they really drop their hands", so the other person is really coming and your just trying to find angles where they can't catch you, no get set up and survive while watching for big openings.

Now, we don't have full armor, so I'm a touch jelouse of guys like tallgeese, who do have it. If we did, we'd amor up attackers and set them after people for full on shots. But, we don't have the gear to put that tool in our box. So, we work with what we have, the tools at hand. Time, money and training allowing, you add new tools, refine and disguard old ones. A mechanic won't turn a bolt with a hammer. He'll use a wrench. But, sometimes to get that first time, the wrench needs a little tap from the hammer so it can do it's job. Sparring isn't fighting, but it can help you prepare for it in ways that nothing else could.