Views on Sparring

[tallgeese]

Based on comments on other threads I thought I'd get a read on everyones thoughts on sparring. I know, that's alot of ground to cover. I wondered how everyone viewed it and threw out some questions to get everyone started.

How intergal is it to your training? What role does it serve in your system? Is it integrated into the other facets of your art or is it something you do seperately? What kind do you do, what does you system hope to gain by this?

I'm curious to hear what everyone things and/or does.

For me, it's an important part of what we do. I've seen people post here that it isn't like fighting, and this is true. Any sort of training is artificial in nature to some degree. However, sparring gives you the opportunity to work on tools at speed against an adversary that is 1)trying to to be hit and, 2) trying to hit you back. This stress innoculation training is very important of survival during conflict.

Of course, this means that the sparring must endevor to mimic reality in some fashion. Because of this, I like sparring to include a wide range of targets at good contact levels. That means you don't need to knock each others heads off each time, but some contact is imparitive with heavy contact occuring from time to time.

Sparring should occur with different focus each time you train. You can't just go out and spar each time. That will let everyone have a good time, but no one gets better (that being said- you'll need to "just spar" from time to time). Sometimes you'll need to work ranging, sometimes crashing and in-fighting. Sometimes, you'll need to work with a more combative atmostphere and almost designate and "attacker" for a "defender" to wrok against. There's a fine line between this type of sparring and simulated encounters.

Integration of skills should be the goal of free fighting as well. Taking all the tools you work and putting them to the test against a "live" partner is very helpful. This means that you'll need varying levels of protection during your outings to help facilitate what you're doing that day.

I look at the ma from a combative lens. So, all the modalities I use I want to lead to that end. This might not be the case with everyone. Some will want to train for competition, others for personal betterment. All that's good. And in some cases sparring might not need the treatment I give it.

For a combative ma-ist. I feel it's still a valuable tool for preping one for conflict if used properly.

So, everyone else...

[Kuma]

How intergal is it to your training? What role does it serve in your system? Is it integrated into the other facets of your art or is it something you do seperately? What kind do you do, what does you system hope to gain by this?

1) In Kyokushin, kumite is one of the three Ks that make up your training (the other two being kihon and kata). Kumite is very important for the Kyokushin karateka, and you need to have good kumite skills to advance in the ranking system. Kumite admittedly probably ranks higher than kihon and kata in Kyokushin.

2) They use traditional techniques but since most of it is more adapted to full contact fighting, I would say somewhat integrated but not completely.

3) Kyokushin sparring is knockdown fighting. There is no protective gear, not even gloves. Because of the lack of hand protection and laws against bare knuckle fighting, head punches are not allowed in jissen kumite (its biggest weakness). Punches to the body are, however, and knees and kicks are allowed to the legs, body, and head. A typical "round" is 2 minutes. Tournament rules say a match is won with ippon by either knocking the opponent out, unable to finish the match, or by accumulating points through knockdowns and blows that show effect. In non-tournament kumite, you essentially shake it off and keep fighting unless seriously hurt or KOed.

To better explain it, here's some Kyokushin sparring knockouts and such.

[joesteph]

Tournament rules say a match is won with ippon by either knocking the opponent out, unable to finish the match, or by accumulating points through knockdowns and blows that show effect. (emphasis added)

Good video, Kuma. Does the reference I underlined mean the fight can be stopped, acknowledging the winner w/o further damage to the opponent?

[Kuma]

Tournament rules say a match is won with ippon by either knocking the opponent out, unable to finish the match, or by accumulating points through knockdowns and blows that show effect. (emphasis added)

Good video, Kuma. Does the reference I underlined mean the fight can be stopped, acknowledging the winner w/o further damage to the opponent?

Correct. The rules from the UK Kyokushin site give a better picture:

The winner shall be determined on full point (IPPON) or at time one half point (WAZA-ARI). Two half points awarded will constitute one full point.

1, Full point win - IPPON:

* With the exception of techniques which are fouls and not allowed by the contest rules, any technique that connect and instantaneously downs the opponent for longer than 3 seconds, scores a full point.

* When a contestant informs the referee or judges that he is beaten as the result of techniques allowed within the contest rules, his opponent shall be awarded a full point.

* A serious foul by or the disqualification of a contestant will automatically give the other contestant the win in a contest.

2. Half point win - WAZA-ARI :

* Where a contestant is knocked down by a technique allowed within the contest rules and regain a standing position within 3 seconds, a half point can be awarded to his opponent. The (downed) opponent will be allowed to continue with the contest only if in opinion of the referee he is fit to do so. This will be after consultation with the doctor, at the referees discretion.

* When an opponent is downed with a technique including foot sweeps and a well focused but non-contact technique is followed through, WAZA-ARI is awarded.

3. Decision win - YUSEI:

When no definite IPPON or WAZA-ARI has been scored, the judges may award a win by decision on the basis of superior techniques skill and fighting spirit.

[JusticeZero]

A roda is a spatially-constrained competitive match with an externally dictated speed constraint. Hand techniques are not used, nor is grappling, only kicks and throws. Target height is limited to above the hips. Defenses are centered on dodges, rather than blocks, and most kicks are launched to the full extent at power rather than stopping, as speed is moderated to allow the kicks to be dodged. Victory is achieved by:

A: Defender maneuvers into the path of a chambered head kick - specifically, they have to actually walk into it in a way orchestrated by the attacker. These kicks are not launched.

B: Defender steps, retreats, falls, etc. out of bounds.

C: Defender's stance integrity collapses enough that they fall on the ground with their weight not on hands, feet, or head.

Because the moderating factor is SPEED, not as much targeting, the bad habit of pulling attacks is reduced. Because the match is so unlike a fight, one can drill all the positional elements without the ridiculous and unrealistic sparring adaptations seen in most arts' sparring technique.

Standard sparring is to be avoided; it has less relationship to a real fight than two person form practice does, and as such creates, along with a host of bad habits, a false sense of security, and may actually worsen the stress response when opponents fail to behave anything even remotely like a sparring partner. Some say it can be used "properly". This may be the case, if all participants are fully aware of sparring's inherent unreality in specific terms. Typically though, one hears sparring referred to as a "reality check", which is, in fact, one of the things it is very little like.

[Kuma]

No offense, JusticeZero, but when you compare your roda description to the second paragraph, they don't seem to jive much. Care to get in a more detailed explanation in another thread?

[JusticeZero]

What part exactly does not seem to fit together?

It's set up to highlight specific tactical awarenesses and dynamism, and does not pretend to be a fight. You don't come out of a roda thinking 'Wow, that was just like fighting!' One does, however, see people posting under the impression that their TKD/Karate/Gungfu sparring was like a real fight; it isn't at all like a real fight though, and if they try to carry many of the lessons they 'learned' from sparring into a self-defense situation, they will be seriously endangered by their unrealistic training regimen. Ours is non-fight-like to the degree that we understand the need to supplement with different exercizes in order to prepare for self defense, but we still get to play with stress testing many of our techniques against uncooperative opponents. We moderate speed because really, circular kicks powered mainly through the core can deliver a heck of a lot of damage targeted at the floating ribs; we'd rather not leave ourself banged up and bruised every day. Increasing skill levels allows the speed to increase; also, the speed moderation and explicit use of rhythmic technique use lets us develop a very keen sense to them. One of the friendly jogoes I remember seeing between two senior students was based almost entirely on that, it looked like someone was hand-cranking the movie of them and changing the speed randomly every second or two as they tried to get various positions in each other's timing.

[tallgeese]

I can't speak to your specific training regimine or your art's training modalities. I can say that sparring, if trained to increase your capacity to impliment tools against a resisting opponant, is very helpful in developing one's ability to defend one's self.

Like I said, everything will be artificial to a point. I do agree that spontanious attack and defend drills (and the needed training to build up to them) should be included in a training regimine. It's not the only tool, but it is a highly versitle and useful one.

I go back to my feeling that training against someone actually trying to hit you is high valuable as a tool for training. I'm not sure what bad habits you're refering to unless it's performed poorly. For instance, an understanding of keeping hands up, coving various and unspecified attacks in random order, moving to accomidate unexpected manuvers by an opponant, and dealing with the adrinilene dump of being hit, are all positives, not negitives. Again, we have to look at how the sparring is being done, and again, we have to look at how it's matching with your training goals.

As to training tools used in a fight you have to ask: Is one implimenting those tools during resistive sparring? Is at least facsimilie contact being made to targets that would be helpful in an all out sd context? At least from time to time?

I can say that in my experiance (and mine alone), fighting is much more like sparring than it is pre arranged drills. I think the one of the most useful fight simulations is full on defense against an armored opopnant, but that's not the question. It's about the integration of sparring, which I still feel is a great training tool.

[Kuma]

Rather than repeat, I'll just say I'm mostly in agreement with tallgeese. Being a police officer, anything I've ever used against an aggressive suspect has been something I learned sparring against others.

[bushido_man96]

JusticeZero, thank you for your explanations of the roda, and behind it. I think that your assessment of how many other styles of sparring are looked at is close, too.

I think that Caporeia is one of the most beautiful arts to see practiced, too. Those guys and gals have talent.

As to tallgeese's questions, here goes:

How intergal is it to your training?

Not as integral as I'd like it to be. We spend the bulk of our time on basics, forms, then one-steps, before getting into sparring. White belts and low orange belts don't typically spar, but do combinations with a partner, to get used to moving and throwing out techniques. This is just our school, too; others may spend more time sparring, but our instructor likes to make sure that technique is good, first.

What role does it serve in your system?

The role that it plays in our system is basically a way to learn to execute TKD kicks and punches while moving with another. Its main focus is to learn distance, timing, and other skills like blocking, countering, and developing reaction time to counter techniques while using footwork as well.

Is it integrated into the other facets of your art or is it something you do seperately?

No, not really. Some of our higher ranked one-steps could make good TKD sparring combos, using lead leg side kicks followed by spinning kicks to advance on an opponent, but unless you work on transitioning the combination to sparring, it doesn't help much. Sparring tends to be all its own, mainly because of its target restriction and point system. Nothing we really do with forms or one-steps is translated into sparring.

What kind do you do, what does you system hope to gain by this?

We use the Olympic/WTF style sparring rules, wearing chest protectors, headgear, and gear covering the knuckles, hands, and forearms, and the instep and shin. No knee strikes or elbows, no takedowns, throws, or sweeps. Kicks and punches to the front of the trunk (nothing to the back), and kicks only to the head. Our organization tournament does a point style, but with the body displacement rule (trembling shock). Otherwise, tournaments we attend usually use WTF rules of continuous sparring in 2 minute rounds. What the system gains is a sport aspect of competition, that can attract those interested in competing against their peers.