The way the ranking systems tend to work....

[Espina]

Tallgeese

Maybe you think this way because you are a MMA, but perhaps you could ask any Japanese karate master about this... I don't think he would agree with you.

Personally, I don't even consider that training for UFC can be compared to training for a way of living, which is in fact Karate and other martial arts.

Traditional training will always have an advantage over modern UFC-like training just because it wasn't meant to be for TV, or anyone else. It was meant to be for you, and eventually you would become wise enough to give it to your students.

But hey, this is a forum, we are supposed to be debating

Thanks for your thoughts.

[bushido_man96]

Does everybody think the same?

I mean, I think that's exactly the difference between a Master like Kanazawa and a fighter like Tito Ortiz

Have you met Tito Ortiz? Have you heard anything about the training he has received, or the kind of person he is? He may be very generous, and easy to talk to; a nice guy. He puts on the "bad boy" image, but that is likely part of who he is. I've got a brother who can be like that at times, but he also has earned a black belt in TKD, and Wrestled in high school. So, just because some is an MMA fighter, and not a "traditional" Martial Artist, doesn't really mean anything.

I think you need a good set of values because if you don't understand these kind of things, every time you train you'll be fighting, instead of practicing, and that will prevent you from growing.

I agree with and believe in these values myself. I just don't believe that it is the role of Martial Artists to push these values on others, or to make the enhancement of these values the priority of Martial Arts training.

In the end they are both training to hurt another human being. I have no problem with ma-ers using their training to reach philosophical goals, I don't see it as a mandantory componant. Just part of what they might include as axallary training.

I agree with tallgeese. Its a nice extra touch, if it comes along.

[bushido_man96]

Tallgeese

Maybe you think this way because you are a MMA, but perhaps you could ask any Japanese karate master about this... I don't think he would agree with you.

My question is, why is the Japanese master always considered right? This is what I refer to as the "Eastern bias" when looking at Martial Arts in general. Many people tend to think that the MAs only come from the far East, whereas in fact, the Martial Arts have been a part of every culture to have existed in the world. Just because later generations of Japanese masters made the transition to their Martial Arts becoming "living ways," does not mean that it crosses the line to every culture, and every Martial Art that is out there.

Personally, I don't even consider that training for UFC can be compared to training for a way of living, which is in fact Karate and other martial arts.

You may not view MMA training as a "way," but that doesn't mean that it isn't to those that do train in such a way.

Traditional training will always have an advantage over modern UFC-like training just because it wasn't meant to be for TV, or anyone else. It was meant to be for you, and eventually you would become wise enough to give it to your students.

I don't think that TV has anything to do with it. Jim Arvanitis was training his version of MMA, Pankration, well before the idea of putting it on TV ever came to fruition. It is still meant for the individual.

But hey, this is a forum, we are supposed to be debating

Well, we are discussing, for sure. Not necessarily debating.

[Espina]

... So, just because some is an MMA fighter, and not a "traditional" Martial Artist, doesn't really mean anything.

I agree with you, nobody should stigmatize a person who trains, no matter what martial art he/she performs.

Nevertheless, as I stated before (and this is only my personal belief, but could be shared by other too, though) I think that the differences are the things that you mention...the "bad boy attitude" is just not part of a traditional training, but humility and respect, rather than Tito's propaganda.

I surely have a lot of respect for MMAs. Everyone who goes up in a ring deserves a great deal of respect, but I just don't think that the old Masters vision was to see their art in a cage, or placed under pepsi ads.

It may sound a lot bucolic, but the more I think about it I have more confidence that traditional training is the way to go when it comes to martial artists. This will not only increase their abilities, but also make them better persons.

[bushido_man96]

Hey, all.

In an effort to get this thread back on track, I have started a new thread, "Not All Martial Artists are Honarable," that may be more appropriate for the tangent this thread has taken. So, I think we should direct some of this discussion over to the more focused thread.

Thanks.

[wouldbemaster]

As an experienced instructor I have found that:

1. Most key learning as in knowing and starting to internalise it comes every three grades which links back quite interestingly to the origional three white grades, three green grades, three brown grades etc introduced initially with 3th Dan being a key grade as well as 6th Dan.

I can see the a clear difference in skill, knowledge and approach at these stages.

2. In higher grades you consolidated your learning as you teach and constantly learn new ands interesting things about the techniques etc with your attention not on the basic form but a more advanced awareness of situation, reason for movement etc. With the best will in the world from white to yellow you may get graded for doing a basic punch or kick but that in no way means that you have learnt it, that comes much later. How many times have we heard or said that the true martial arts learning starts after you have your black belt!

3. Whilst I do not stick to a rigid time frame between gradings, i.e. when an individual is ready they will be graded not as part of a structured every three months (sometimes can be used as a money making system) but at the same time recognise the need to encourage and motivate, I personally do not use the grading system to do this but instead rely on other coaching tools and techniques.

Cheers

Brian 4th Dan Wado Ryu Karate Jitsu

[sensei8]

The Kyu system was implemented when Karate was brought to Occident.

The Kyu system and consequently the wearing of the various colored belts (Kyu grades) wouldn't come into place for several more years, not until Sensei Mikonosuke Kaiwashi introduced them [Kyu's] in 1935, when he began to teach judo in Paris. Gichin Funakoshi traveled to Japan to in 1917, it was very inevitable that he would make contact with the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano, therefore, Funakoshi adopted Kano's Yudansha ranking stystem in 1924.

The adoption of the Kyu/Dan system as well as the adoption of a standard Gi were 2 of the 6 conditions which the Dai-Nippon Butokukai required before recognizing Karate as a "legitimate" Martial Art.

The only thing I can determine, is that the only thing that was implemented when Karate was brought Occident/West was...EGO'S!!!!

[bushido_man96]

The only thing I can determine, is that the only thing that was implemented when Karate was brought Occident/West was...EGO'S!!!!

Do you really think that there are no egos in the East, Bob? I have read and heard enough stories to state otherwise.

[Espina]

Sure they are, but maybe not as much as in the West

[bushido_man96]

I just think that living in the West, we know more of what goes on in the West. In the East, it probably looks like the East is worse about it.