Constant experimentation vs. tradition

[sensei8]

That is one nice thing about small organizations that have easy access to each other. Its just too bad that the lower ranks can't get together and do this kind of thing, as well.

Bad instructors and bad organization for not encluding the lower ranks into the learning/training pow-wows...There's no such thing as "secret" and that's the real secret behind the Martial Arts.

I'll brag...my students of all ranks are invited and included into learning/training all that is within our style...this has been allowed a long, long time in my Dojo as well as from the Hombu.

Secret...okie dokie?!!??

[Treebranch]

In my own training i think there is a balance of both. I doubt that there will be 2 many new discoveries in terms of techniques/tactics any time soon. By now we pretty much know what works and what doesnt. If you want to strike someone you cant go past the delivery systems of boxing and kickboxing, for grappling bjj and wrestling have been proven time and time again.

The areas we can improve and experiment on are functional ways to train these already proven skills. This is where my main experimentation occurs. Working out different ways to develop the skills.

I don't agree with that. We haven't seen everything yet, so how can you know that? I use Budo Taijutsu techniques all the time in MMA and BJJ class and it's always my edge over people. Look at Lyoto Machida, Shotokan and BJJ. He's a great fighter with a so called unorthodox style. More are coming I promise.

[tallgeese]

I see your points on both sides. The thing about the above example is that there is not real "new" tactics in it. It's very well utilized movements in series that haven't be ulilized as much as we've seen others used.

Does this make it new, or simple a good expreimental revolution that springs from an individuals unique background and physical capabilities? It's a valid question.

I think that it's how things are put together that will be defined by experimentation. I think that's where the progress will largely be.

[Treebranch]

I see your points on both sides. The thing about the above example is that there is not real "new" tactics in it. It's very well utilized movements in series that haven't be ulilized as much as we've seen others used.

Does this make it new, or simple a good expreimental revolution that springs from an individuals unique background and physical capabilities? It's a valid question.

I think that it's how things are put together that will be defined by experimentation. I think that's where the progress will largely be.

I think it's experimenting with techniques from MA's that are not normally seen in the ring. Yes, physical capabilities have a lot to do with it as well. I don't like the attitude that some people have about TMA's being outdated or the only MA's that "really work" are those used in cage fighting. My belief is to always have an edge. If everyone trains the same way in MMA then it will be just like Boxing. The guy with the most endurance and more talent will win.....not necessarily in that order, but you get the gist. MMA should evolve and adapt other styles, tactics to keep expanding.

[tallgeese]

I think the whole of ma's should continue to do this not just mma. It's what will keep advancing the artform and it's overall efficiency.

[Treebranch]

Yeah, but I think MMA has pushed more TMA's to get off their bums and train more realistically. Traditional forms need to train more realistically so they can evolve. The techiniques work fine if they were just spend some time practicing against resisting opponents. That's all I meant.

[bushido_man96]

I don't think that MMA will become like Boxing. The rule set give it more flexibility to allow fighters to be different. We will see different approaches at times, like with Machida's ideas and strategies, but I don't think that makes things "new." Like Bruce Lee had said, unless someone grows another arm, we won't see a "new" fighting style. We will see the same things applied in different ways, though.

[JusticeZero]

If you want to strike someone you cant go past the delivery systems of boxing and kickboxing, for grappling bjj and wrestling have been proven time and time again.

I'm not completely convinced that we won't see the fashion shift to other arts at some point in the future. Boxing and MT have their own limitations. The best sportfighters chose to use that blend because others have been using it, which is rather circular; we could easily see some fighting prodigy start winning with something completely different and quickly see that tune change. As it is, the only real advantage I see of the arts listed is in training methodology; if boxers and MT people trained against air, and certain other arts trained with live full contact and resistance, right now you would be saying that, for instance, 'Everyone knows that Taiji and Aikido is the best fighting combo in the world..' because the best fighters would be going to those because of the way they carried out training. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[cross]

I'm not completely convinced that we won't see the fashion shift to other arts at some point in the future. Boxing and MT have their own limitations. The best sportfighters chose to use that blend because others have been using it, which is rather circular; we could easily see some fighting prodigy start winning with something completely different and quickly see that tune change. As it is, the only real advantage I see of the arts listed is in training methodology; if boxers and MT people trained against air, and certain other arts trained with live full contact and resistance, right now you would be saying that, for instance, 'Everyone knows that Taiji and Aikido is the best fighting combo in the world..' because the best fighters would be going to those because of the way they carried out training. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I do see your point. However, the fact remains that kickboxing/bjj train against resisting opponents and this get results. Its been seen many times when other styles are put to the test under full contact circumstances, the practicioners end up looking like poorly trained kickboxers. There are only so many ways people can cause pain to each other without weapons, its unlikely we will see many new revelations anytime soon. Its the delivery system you learn from kickboxing and bjj that is the key.

[DWx]

... 'Everyone knows that Taiji and Aikido is the best fighting combo in the world..'

If I can just jump in on this,

JusticeZero (perhaps unintentionally) brings up an interesting point.

At the moment the only real arena where fighters are tested is MMA. So you only get experimentation with striking/grappling styles that will fair well under those rules. No Taiji practitioner or Aikido practitioner is going to do particular well in that environment as the styles aren't based around pain compliance and striking. So anyway, my point is because you're not getting that experimentation for competition purposes and apart from a few ambitious individuals, nobody is really trying to mix these styles up and cross-train them with other styles. Does this mean that styles like Taiji and Aikido are a lot more "traditional" because nobody has tried to develop them in a way that would work for a neo-MMAist? I think it would be quite an interesting experiment to take something like Taiji and try to work it into a fighting style.