Constant experimentation vs. tradition

[Rateh]

The instructors ranked 4th degree and above in my organization that live in utah, regularly get together and try things out (I am never there at the sessions, so I don't know how they go about it). About once every 6 months, they decide on a slightly different way of doing something, based on trying what works and what doesn't. Then they go back to their respective schools and teach the "new" way of doing it.

This is very good in some senses I think, because we know that our system is constantly improving and becoming more effective. At the same time it can be quite....annoying....having to change little details here and there when your only just learning it. Also it takes around a year to filter down through the ranks till everyone is teaching the "new" way, hence you will have one person telling you one way, and another a different way, and then you have to go find one of the 4th degrees or above to clarify.

We have black belt tests once a year however, and it involves about 9 months of extra training and pre-testing for all of the students testing for a black belt rank. At these classes the most current ways are taught, so you know if you ask someone who tested at the last black belt test, that they will have the most current information.

[joesteph]

The instructors . . . regularly get together and try things out . . . About once every 6 months, they decide on a slightly different way of doing something, based on trying what works and what doesn't. . . .

I agree that it's very good for the higher dans to do this, and on a regular basis, Rateh, but I feel that six months is a rather short period of time, and I'm not at all surprised that it takes a year for the "new" way to be incorporated in all the schools. I'd have thought it'd be done annually or even every two years.

At the same time it can be quite....annoying....having to change little details here and there when your only just learning it.

On a bit of a tangent (my apologies), what's a related problem is when you have guest instructors who have you practice somewhat differently from your teacher. As Sir Toppemhat admonishes in the Thomas the Tank Engine series, it causes "confusion and delay."

[Kempohands]

I'd have to say that as an individual, I fall on the side of experimentation and refinement. This goes hand in hand with my system, which at first emphasizes doing things the way that they are taught at under-ranks, and then as students move to Nidan and beyond they are encouraged to "make the system their own" by playing with techniques and finding what works well for them. So because of this, most students in my system make a transition from one side of the spectrum to the other as they advance in rank.

That's one thing I've always been really very thankful about concerning the system of Kempo I practice. Although we hold on to aspects of traditional training, we also encourage open-mindedness and questioning.

[FitOrDie]

In my own training i think there is a balance of both. I doubt that there will be 2 many new discoveries in terms of techniques/tactics any time soon. By now we pretty much know what works and what doesnt. If you want to strike someone you cant go past the delivery systems of boxing and kickboxing, for grappling bjj and wrestling have been proven time and time again.

The areas we can improve and experiment on are functional ways to train these already proven skills. This is where my main experimentation occurs. Working out different ways to develop the skills.

I think Cross hit it on the head here. In fact, you know you have a good martial art when there is no discouraging of experimenting, but you don't need to most of the time anyway.

My first experience with martial arts was at this Kung Fu place. It was ridiculous. The things we "learned" were so obscure and odd and unnatural that no one would ever actually be able to fight that way. They were strange, too, in that if I had never been in class to see the second half of a form or something, it wouldn't be kosher to show it to me. That's how uptight they were.

Now, take a BJJ class, boxing/kickboxing... anyone will show anyone anything that they want. People still add to BJJ from time to time, and people experiement and develop their own personal "styles" BJJ and especially boxing/kickboxing.. but what is there is there because it works and has evolved just like a species. The strong techniques survive, the weak are forgotten.

And that, to repeat my point, is why I know I go to good schools. No one is going to refuse to show me an armbar from knee-on-stomache because I missed that class/seminar. No one is going to refuse to show me how to set up a lead hook to the body. And, if I develop a strategy that works, no one is going to say "that is now how Shao-Lin [or whoever] does it."

So, to repeat my original point, a good martial art has no need for such strict adherance to tradition that you can't experiment or try things differently. However, a good martial art also will often correct you when you do so because you keep losing.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I see no reason why a traditional martial art can't be experimental from time to time and yet still remain within its intended framework.

In fact I would say that any martial art worth its sorts would do this as a matter of course.

A traditional style does not necessarily imply a limited style.

[bushido_man96]

The instructors . . . regularly get together and try things out . . . About once every 6 months, they decide on a slightly different way of doing something, based on trying what works and what doesn't. . . .

I agree that it's very good for the higher dans to do this, and on a regular basis, Rateh, but I feel that six months is a rather short period of time, and I'm not at all surprised that it takes a year for the "new" way to be incorporated in all the schools. I'd have thought it'd be done annually or even every two years.

My question here is why should this be relegated to only the high ranks? Chances are that the "changes" that are made are not difficult to learn and adapt, and everyone involved would benefit.

I also think that lower ranks should be experimenting with different things as well. Its not something that only higher ranks can do right. Experimenting can help everyone at any stage.

[bushido_man96]

The areas we can improve and experiment on are functional ways to train these already proven skills. This is where my main experimentation occurs. Working out different ways to develop the skills.

So cross, do you think that for the most part you see the changes taking place in the area of training methodology, as opposed to anything else?

[Rateh]

The instructors . . . regularly get together and try things out . . . About once every 6 months, they decide on a slightly different way of doing something, based on trying what works and what doesn't. . . .

I agree that it's very good for the higher dans to do this, and on a regular basis, Rateh, but I feel that six months is a rather short period of time, and I'm not at all surprised that it takes a year for the "new" way to be incorporated in all the schools. I'd have thought it'd be done annually or even every two years.

My question here is why should this be relegated to only the high ranks? Chances are that the "changes" that are made are not difficult to learn and adapt, and everyone involved would benefit.

I also think that lower ranks should be experimenting with different things as well. Its not something that only higher ranks can do right. Experimenting can help everyone at any stage.

Well I know its not a planned "lets get together saturday the 3rd at 9 am and try out this and that." It's more of an unplanned thing, from what I understand they're just hanging out together at a dojang, for some reason or other, and start trying things and ideas out on eachother. Now I know for a fact that when people are learning these techniques, especially as black belts, they ask questions about why or how it works. And I also know that these questions and ideas that are brought up are taken into account when the higher ranks are together messing around with it.

So it's not really a matter of excluding anyone, it's just how it works out. I'm sure if I happened to be there when it was occuring they would listen to and respect my insight on it. But when lower ranks are around, the higher ranks don't tend to get much...them time.

It might make it a little more clear to know that the organization is very small.... Basically there are two groups, one in colorado (with like 4 schools) and one in Utah, with 3 schools. They kinda do their own thing, but are under the same organization. The ones in utah are the ones that get together, all schools are within an hour of eachother. We have a 6th degree who is over utah, two 5th degrees, a 4th degree, and one who is going for his 4th soon. We also have 3 or 4 3rd degrees.

It's really nice to all be close, as I get training from the 6th degree twice or more a month, and I have a 5th degree and 2 3rd degrees that teach most/all of the classes at my school.

Partially because of the utah people changing/improving things, and the colorado people changing things on their side.....well we really are two groups going our own way right now....

[bushido_man96]

That is one nice thing about small organizations that have easy access to each other. Its just too bad that the lower ranks can't get together and do this kind of thing, as well.

[sensei8]

For me...I'm a very curious person. Within my style it is well known that I've always questioned as to who, what, where, when, why, and how. I've never followed anybody blindly, not even my Dai-Soke and/or the methodologies of my style. Why? Because I want to find out if what I'm being told is true/effective or not for me. I depend on my Dai-Soke for his awesome knowledge base/skills, yet, I've just got to take apart the radio to see just how it works beyond what the technical manuals as well as the experts in the radio industry say. I want a better radio, I want a more effective radio, and I want to take it apart over and over again, thus I'll never be satisfied...I'm always learning and I'll never know everything about anything, especially the Martial Arts.