Defense Against the Blade

[tallgeese]

Great vid finds that showcase how lethal this kind of thing can be.

[joesteph]

Cross's video links remind me of the video my friend I had used in the past to train to defend against the blade. It was by Marc "Animal" MacYoung, and he demonstrated that a thrusting knife attack is not always like fencing (the blade being forward and the stab moving straight at your midsection), and can be like the "grab and stab." His demo had him suddenly raising one forearm up horizontally, the other hand holding the knife, and then he slammed into his partner, grabbing with the hand of the slamming forearm, while he poked holes in the midsection with the other hand.

The idea of the hard slap against a thrust and getting off the center line, which I referred to in my last posting, was from MacYoung demonstrating against a straight stab. MacYoung demonstrated the hard slap to deflect, then how to get away; he didn't demonstrate disarming/defeating the opponent, although my friend and I improvised what we thought would counter.

I wonder if the anti-blade disarms, with the knife-wielder being defeated, really only work against the untrained knifer. A punk with a knife would more than likely have less method to his madness than someone trained in knife attacks, like the guest instructor (or his students) I referred to in my OP.

[tallgeese]

It really depends. Personally, if I have to I'd work for weapon control. Of course, this madates training agaist a "live" attacker rather than always doing clean movements. Don't get me wrong, there will always be a place for movement drills of a controlled fashin, but survivabilty will be determined by fast paced spontaneous drills and stress innoculation.

For my money, best case scenarios involve escalation of weaponry, ie. you clear disatance and shoot the guy, or bean him in the head with a hard weapon such as a club. Multiple times, until he dosn't move.

Barring that, gaining space (controling the distance) and escaping is the best option.

Marc Young also makes a very valid point in regards to the ambush factor in true attacks where often you won't see the knife till it's in your ribs. Having seen the results of some knife related crimes, this is a good point. It brings to the forefront the importance of awarness and situational control prior to any altercation.

It's a big subject, any sort of weapons work. With plenty of complex facets to deal with. Isn't that wonderful .

[FitOrDie]

I notice that you point out things that COULD happen when you do this or that... Well sure, I suppose they could, but if you are in search of a perfect technique that will leave you invulnerable to everything except that which you are defending against, which you are rendering harmless anyway... well, sorry, force-fields haven't been invented yet.

What post are you referring to here?

The original one.

[joesteph]

I notice that you point out things that COULD happen when you do this or that... Well sure, I suppose they could, but if you are in search of a perfect technique that will leave you invulnerable to everything except that which you are defending against, which you are rendering harmless anyway... well, sorry, force-fields haven't been invented yet.

What post are you referring to here?

The original one.

My questions were specifically about what I was being shown and how I saw what I considered weaknesses. The idea of slashing the hands came from a black belt who told me this some years ago, and the strike to the face is from my awareness that the knife wielder still does have a free hand to fight with.

I'm not clear what you mean by invulnerable and force fields, FitOrDie, but I thought that your second and third paragraphs in the posting this quote comes from contributed to the discussion.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi Joe,

This may interest you.

In Wado we have a set paired Kata called "Tanto-Dori". Tanto=Dagger, Dori=Take.

The following vid shows some of these.

Like all other katas they are not to be taken literally, but contain the key principles of technique and movement on which to build.

You will see that Tori (ie you / deffender) does not raise his hands, he moves off the center line (or chu-sen) to avoid the blade, and then contains/controls it - either by restraining the hand or making it "mechanically" impossible for the assailant to do further damage.

The action doesn't kick in for about a minute into the vid. Sorry, but if you spoke Japanese, I am sure the preamble would be most informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslwdN2mz_Q

This video is an interesting demonstration of the art of karate, if your into that kind of thing. However, it has nothing to do with actual combat. Consider it your lucky day if an armed attacker tries to stab you in the same way that the attacker does in this video. Have a look around the net at videos of actual knife attacks if you want an idea of how people actually attack each other.

Whenever i watch self defense demo's i always keep an eye on the attacker, is he/she actually attacking with real intent, and using an attacking method that is based in reality? If not then any technique shown against the attacker probably has no base in reality either.

Just to be clear, I didn't post this as an example of a self deffence drill against a knife, it isn't, and so therefore as I said, it should not be taken literally.

Joe had mentioned the point about keeping the hands up as barrier, and I know that in classical Tanto dori, the hands are kept down out of harms way.

Tanto Dori are kata, just like Sanbon Kumite or Pinan Nidan, and such they are designed to be used as part of a bigger process. They exist to help instill some basic principles for dealing with an attacker with a blade, ie correct distance, body movement, and control/management.

Thats all, but that said, I would not be too hasty to relegate them into the realms of antiquity just because they form part of the "art" of Karate!

[joesteph]

In Wado we have a set paired Kata called "Tanto-Dori". Tanto=Dagger, Dori=Take.

The following vid shows some of these. . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslwdN2mz_Q

I did find this video interesting, Michi. I think the key ingredient in knife defense is movement more than anything, whether brought out in a kata or in a special anti-knife exercise. It's not like taking a punch in order to deliver two; there's not much margin for error--if there's any at all.

The former assistant instructor at my dojang, who's now a certified instructor himself, had told me last year while going for his certification that there was a change in one of the Soo Bahk Do defenses against an overhand stab. There was too much force-against-force as opposed to getting out of the way, meaning getting stabbed in the head. I'm sure I'd look bad and feel even worse if I had a knife sticking out of the top of my head.

[ProKarateShop]

one other thing to remember when defending against a blade. one thing to remember is " you have the option to control where you are cut, but you have to accept the fact that you will be cut"

[ryukasagi]

my personal defense against a blade would probally be running away screaming. But if that's not an option i would keep my hands up and all my arteries in so it would be harder to cut them. also finding a weapon would be high on my priorty list.