Defense Against the Blade

[joesteph]

I started taking self-defense jujitsu on Saturdays, taught by a sensei who is skilled in Vee Arnis--a Filipino art. He had an ankle injury, so a guest instructor taught this past Saturday.

I thought we were going to be doing defense against knife attacks, but we were instructed in how to take a knife and attack an unarmed individual. I didn't realize this at first, as we were instructed in all the attack areas, but when we got to anti-knife defensive moves, he showed how to counter them and still knife the person. I went along for an appropriate period of time and then excused myself.

I am not making a judgment about knife fighting any more than if a sticks sensei instructed us. My question is about defense against the blade.

In practicing as the one using defensive moves, I actually did learn something about defending against diagonal slashes to the upper and lower sections of the torso. However, I had to keep my hands in an "up" position (instead of by my sides, waiting to thrust them out) and wait for the slash to come, then make my move to stop it.

I was fairly successful, but I believe that the "hands up" position did not make sense. If I were attacking with a knife, I'd see the hands as targets and slash them.

There was also a middle thrust to the midsection, not straight, but like an uppercut to the solar plexus. When Sensei first did this movement against me, I got off what I call the center line, lightly (as I was unsure of what was expected of me) slapping the outside of his right wrist/hand with my left hand. He corrected me that I should be seizing the knife hand with both hands at the wrist/lower forearm.

I did as instructed, but I don't see how his free hand couldn't just palm heel my face, maybe breaking my nose and help free his knife hand. (His counter to my two-handed grab was to slam down on my wrists with his free hand, freeing the blade for stabbing use.)

Have any members done defense against the blade? Am I in the right about the hands being slashed in the "up" position? Is my thought to move off the center line rather than immediately grab the wrist correct?

[Daisho]

This topic interested me, for one because we train OFTEN to counter both knife and katana wielding opponents. And also because for the first few years I trained Miyama Ryu, we shared our dojo with a Vee Arnis class, and I had many opportunities to both observe their classes, and to cross train with their instructors. However, I can't remember any of their training that was in defense of blade attacks.

Firstly in our training vs a knife, we keep our arms bent, but in front of our stomach, for almost all techniques. Our primary focus is to evade strikes while waiting for an opening where the attacker is off balance, and we're taught to immediately use that opportunity to get the attackers back. This often includes slapping the outer wrist similar to how you explained, while lunging inside and behind the assailant.

As far as prepping the defense by raising my arms into a combat stance, I can't imagine that being a strong move.

First off, we keep our arms low to not allow the attacker any better idea of proper spacing. If I were to raise my arms, the attacker has a much better sense of distance, and is likely to slash out at my exposed arms.

Second, you said he instructed you to take hold of the attacker's forearm from a frontal position. I have no idea what would stop the attacker from twisting the blade and burying it in your side. Or just slamming his upper body into yours to force you into a wide stance, from which you'd have balance... but no ability to be explosive.

I believe your instincts in defense were correct, and would need a VERY convincing demonstration to ever buy into remaining in front of my attacker and attempting to restrain his arm, or putting my only true means of defense directly into his attack range.

[tallgeese]

There are plenty of theories out there, joe. I've spent a good chunk of time in the past working with knives, here's my thoughts in regard to your specific questions.

As to the hands up position, you can pretty much figure on a startle response doing this for you in any sort of armed conflict. If you have time to see the assult coming at all, your body will probibly instinctively respond in a manner which does this for you. Best to capatialze on it.

I'm always a big fan of getting the hands up. Yes, they can be slashed, that's why you train your response to be tight. Also, I can't my forearm rotation when there's a blade invovled to present more of the exterior of the forearm. That way you're exposing less heavy bleeding targets. Also, a hands up position gets something close to your neck to help defend that region.

Good knifers will take targets of opportunity and cut at them just to get in your head and make you move. A couple of slashes and then your bleeding and losing the mental edge. Now, you start reaching for that knife hand and exposing bigger targets. So, yeah, people will try to cut them. But if your hands aren't up, they'll be cutting immediately to either the larger arm movers in the upper arm or if distace dictates, the neck. Keeping the arms up creates a barrier of sorts to maintain distance.

Now we come to the off line movement. Personally, I try to always move off center line when faced with a linear attack. Success varies, but you need to try and move the target of the atttack. Checking the weapon hand is a good idea as well. However, gitting a grip on it is way better than merely slapping it away. Control is key in armed conflicts.

I usually preach not to commit two of your weapons to a single attack from an advasary. There is an exception once a weapon comes into play. Here, I will get both hands on the knife holding appendage as quickly as possible.

Yes, he can then counter your grab more easily. However, that knife is a serious force multiplier and increadably dangerous. Again, control is key. It's the biggest threat on the board and needs to be in your possession, not his. So yes, I will risk counter here to maintain a two on one control over the knife hand.

Once you've established control, you need to immeditately be offensive. You can't give him time to react to your counter. Now's the time to start the head butts, knees to the ground, biting and such. And it has to happen without hesitation.

By using both your off line motion and a controlling function at the attack point, you make it a two tiered process to stab you raher than one. If you just move, he has to correct his angle. If you just make a trapping motion or grab he must simply defeat that. If you do both, now he has two layers of defense to pentrate.

With weapons in general, you've got three overriding principles-

-control the weapon

-control the distacne

and

-esclate weaponry

If you can control the weapon being used against you, you can win the fight. If you can maintain distacne, you can win, or escape. If you can escalate to a superior weapon and have the skill to deploy it, you can win. Making those three things happen is up to the individual movements form your systems and whatever else you're importing to get the job done. Building a reponse systems around those principles will give you a good start in dealing with armed conflict.

[bushido_man96]

I haven't done a lot of knife defense training, but I don't like the idea of staying squared up with a knife attack, either. I also don't like the idea of not getting my hands up to defend with. You have to protect the vitals, and getting the arms up will help that, for sure.

I like the idea of escalating to weaponry, myself. Find something big, and hit them with it.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I started taking self-defense jujitsu on Saturdays, taught by a sensei who is skilled in Vee Arnis--a Filipino art. He had an ankle injury, so a guest instructor taught this past Saturday.

I thought we were going to be doing defense against knife attacks, but we were instructed in how to take a knife and attack an unarmed individual. I didn't realize this at first, as we were instructed in all the attack areas, but when we got to anti-knife defensive moves, he showed how to counter them and still knife the person. I went along for an appropriate period of time and then excused myself.

I am not making a judgment about knife fighting any more than if a sticks sensei instructed us. My question is about defense against the blade.

In practicing as the one using defensive moves, I actually did learn something about defending against diagonal slashes to the upper and lower sections of the torso. However, I had to keep my hands in an "up" position (instead of by my sides, waiting to thrust them out) and wait for the slash to come, then make my move to stop it.

I was fairly successful, but I believe that the "hands up" position did not make sense. If I were attacking with a knife, I'd see the hands as targets and slash them.

There was also a middle thrust to the midsection, not straight, but like an uppercut to the solar plexus. When Sensei first did this movement against me, I got off what I call the center line, lightly (as I was unsure of what was expected of me) slapping the outside of his right wrist/hand with my left hand. He corrected me that I should be seizing the knife hand with both hands at the wrist/lower forearm.

I did as instructed, but I don't see how his free hand couldn't just palm heel my face, maybe breaking my nose and help free his knife hand. (His counter to my two-handed grab was to slam down on my wrists with his free hand, freeing the blade for stabbing use.)

Have any members done defense against the blade? Am I in the right about the hands being slashed in the "up" position? Is my thought to move off the center line rather than immediately grab the wrist correct?

Hi Joe,

This may interest you.

In Wado we have a set paired Kata called "Tanto-Dori". Tanto=Dagger, Dori=Take.

The following vid shows some of these.

Like all other katas they are not to be taken literally, but contain the key principles of technique and movement on which to build.

You will see that Tori (ie you / deffender) does not raise his hands, he moves off the center line (or chu-sen) to avoid the blade, and then contains/controls it - either by restraining the hand or making it "mechanically" impossible for the assailant to do further damage.

The action doesn't kick in for about a minute into the vid. Sorry, but if you spoke Japanese, I am sure the preamble would be most informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslwdN2mz_Q

[FitOrDie]

I notice that you point out things that COULD happen when you do this or that... Well sure, I suppose they could, but if you are in search of a perfect technique that will leave you invulnerable to everything except that which you are defending against, which you are rendering harmless anyway... well, sorry, force-fields haven't been invented yet.

Keep in mind though, most everyone who attacks someone with a knife has tunnel vision: stab and cut the person's body. They don't think, hey, slash the hands, or hey, use my empty hand to punch and my feet to kick and my head to head butt... they just think about their knife. Instances like this are fast and chaotic, analyzation is not present, instinct is.

Speaking of which, Tallgeese is right, your hands will almost certainly go up instinctively anyway, so why work against it? Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, at least, wired that response into your brain and nervous system. Must be there for a reason. I'd rather be cut on the arm than stabbed in the torso.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I notice that you point out things that COULD happen when you do this or that... Well sure, I suppose they could, but if you are in search of a perfect technique that will leave you invulnerable to everything except that which you are defending against, which you are rendering harmless anyway... well, sorry, force-fields haven't been invented yet.

What post are you referring to here?

[Traymond]

When I was in pentjak silat, they always told us to never let your hands move past your ribs in an attempt to take a bladed weapon away, wait till the momentum exerts downs then you can guide it away from your easier.

[joesteph]

Different opinions here. I did a limited amount of anti-knife work way in the past with a friend, concentrating just on the thrust, not on diagonal slashes or overhead stabs, as the thrust alone took a lot of time to figure out and work on.

I'd already received an observation from a black belt that he, using a blade, would look to cut the hands, so we concentrated on keeping the hands where we felt we could shoot them out. The hands were, as I remember, held at about solar plexus high, and to the sides. The slap we practiced was practiced strong, movement was off the center line, and we then had to work on seizing the knife hand. Actually, we worked on seizing the wrist and pushing the knife-holding arm against the chest of the attacker. The idea was to shove, and we used both hands, one to pin/smother the knife hand, the other to seize the attacker's throat--and shove-walk the opponent back. This practice was done in my friend's living room, not a training hall.

Trying to imitate a Peyton Quinn video on grabbing the knife hand didn't succeed. If we tried to grab the knife hand, hoping to blend with the attacker, such as to pull the knife past us, or, if he pulled back, to push it past him, we never got it to work. The two problems were: if grabbing the knife hand and pulling, the attacker would tend to redirect the knife into the defender's body; if grabbing the knife hand and pushing, not to his chest but to his side, he pulled, the knife hand hold was compromised, and then came the thrust to the defender's body.

My friend and I did the best we could, and we didn't do badly, but, as I said above, it was a lot of work on just the straight thrust.

[cross]

Hi Joe,

This may interest you.

In Wado we have a set paired Kata called "Tanto-Dori". Tanto=Dagger, Dori=Take.

The following vid shows some of these.

Like all other katas they are not to be taken literally, but contain the key principles of technique and movement on which to build.

You will see that Tori (ie you / deffender) does not raise his hands, he moves off the center line (or chu-sen) to avoid the blade, and then contains/controls it - either by restraining the hand or making it "mechanically" impossible for the assailant to do further damage.

The action doesn't kick in for about a minute into the vid. Sorry, but if you spoke Japanese, I am sure the preamble would be most informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QslwdN2mz_Q

This video is an interesting demonstration of the art of karate, if your into that kind of thing. However, it has nothing to do with actual combat. Consider it your lucky day if an armed attacker tries to stab you in the same way that the attacker does in this video. Have a look around the net at videos of actual knife attacks if you want an idea of how people actually attack each other.

Whenever i watch self defense demo's i always keep an eye on the attacker, is he/she actually attacking with real intent, and using an attacking method that is based in reality? If not then any technique shown against the attacker probably has no base in reality either.

Check out the following videos and look at the attacks used, and notice the actual intent of the attackers, in comparison to the above kata video:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=YHeMrHOvZnI&feature=PlayList&p=302C5622FEC322EC&index=3

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HAvlf0V4_H8&feature=channel_page

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=reuHRoETmHg&feature=related