learning vs understanding vs applying vs mastery/perfection

[bushido_man96]

I think achieving "mastery" is something that is possible. However, its hard to put a measurable, quantifiable number on it. Therefore, its hard to tell if you have made it there or not. "Perfection" is not really attainable, in my mind. Working towards it is a good goal, though; it makes you continue to strive. But, you have to keep it in the context of everything else you are pursuing in your studies.

and can you achieve mastery of the art while working a career someplace else and having a family? of course, but you need 1. the right teacher, 2. the right kind of training plan 3. the right philosophy about what your doing.

Do you have a layout you could show us for 1, 2, and 3?

[BDPulver]

I can only go from experience in my style. I've been studying, practicing, teaching isshinryu close to 30 yrs. Does this make me a master of other styles as well. I wouldnt think so.

All I know is isshinryu and kobudo. I still wouldnt expect to be a master of isshinryu even with that long of training in it.

I still dont know every thing there is in my form. I love my style though. And thats the other thing also to mastery, theres a Love to your style that only you yourself can explain.

[KarateEd]

Reading Yagyu Munenori's book The Sword and The Mind, he states that a master is one who is "free from attachment to his various skills." By free from attachment he means that, when using your skills, you don't consider exactly what you are doing you just do it (due to years of experience, training, study, etc.).

[TheArtofDave]

I just don't think there is one. And this is coming from a guy who it took close to 30 years to find a style he loved enough to pursue even after all the hiccups, and things not working out in my favor. I'm still going back to attain something close to mastery.

A true master doesn't exist. The true master would be consumed with training, and teaching. Martial Arts is about being dedicated to over coming the fear that you cannot complete your techniques. It's only when you overcome yourself that you find yourself. That is why Black belt is not the end but only the beginning.

The same could be said for cross-training which would keep you very busy. A true master would be "perfect" in all area's and flawless in dedication, teacher. He would be able to make you learn the first time he went over it. Then you would practice it until you mastered every technique.

Sadly, however this is the real world. We'll never achieve that level of perfection so we must strive to attain it by being very proficient in our drills and techniques.

I think mastery is impossible. But attaining a very high level of skill is not. you're always going to suffer in one area, so that is why you can never be a master. But you can always train to get better in those areas. For each area you find another weak spot will show. But constant training will always help you improve into a well rounded martial artist.

[sensei8]

so anyway my theory, and its just a thery so dont beat me up:

1. learning = beginner

2. understanding = adv beginner/intermediate

3. applying/fighitng = advanced

4. mastery / perfection = expert / teachers / black belter

I'm not going to beat you up, and you're absolutely correct when you say its just a theory.

Here's my theory/opinion based on your observation(s)...

All 4 of your "phases" are infinite. Huh? Learning, understanding, applying/fighting, and mastery/perfection are REACCURING in the practitioner each and every time when the practitioner is faced with a "new" technique(s). When is it "new"? When something has never been experienced before!

One never truly goes from one rung to another and stay there, therefore, each rung must be revisited as things are learnt no matter the rank/experience. Even within that, the 4 phases are constant with no end because one can't truly master anything in the martial arts. Why? One reason is that we're flawed humans, therefore, we're not perfect. Two, mastering something is no more than an illusion, therefore, mastery/perfection don't exist. Master/Expert are nothing more than labels attached, but, these labels assume alot about "us" as humans.

I'm a Hachidan/Hanshi and blah blah, but I'm NO master and I'm NO expert because my learning curve changes from moment to moment as well as from discovery to discovery. This is my path in the martial arts!

Edited July 3, 2009 by sensei8

[joesteph]

so anyway my theory, and its just a thery so dont beat me up:

1. learning = beginner

2. understanding = adv beginner/intermediate

3. applying/fighitng = advanced

4. mastery / perfection = expert / teachers / black belter

I'm not going to beat you up, and you're absolutely correct when you say its just a theory.

Here's my theory/opinion based on your observation(s)...

All 4 of your "phases" are infinite. Huh? Learning, understanding, applying/fighting, and mastery/perfection are REACCURING in the practitioner . . .

[E]ach rung must be revisited as things are learnt no matter the rank/experience.

I hope I didn't alter the meaning of your response to Ironsifu, Bob, by abridging it.

Both of you are like psychoanalysts from the past (such as Freud and Eriksson), who worked at figuring out stages of human development, and whether we have to secure one in order to move on/continue to grow as persons, or that we'll again meet old challenges we've thought we've passed. There's no reason not to compare psychological and martial arts growth and development.

If martial arts is a person's "life" or self-identification, then each stage in martial arts development is actually a need to be fulfilled. Technique, then, would not be enough for such a person, as it's as emotional as it is physical to him or her.

[bushido_man96]

Must mastery=perfection? I don't think so. I think that it requires a high level of skill and experience, but I don't think that "perfection" has to enter into the equation.

[sensei8]

Joe,

I hope I didn't alter the meaning of your response to Ironsifu, Bob, by abridging it.

Nopper! Although I've been called many things before, but, Freud and Eriksson!? Just kidding Joe! I thought I was complimenting ironsifu with what I said. If I didn't, my bad, it wasn't my intent at all.

If martial arts is a person's "life" or self-identification, then each stage in martial arts development is actually a need to be fulfilled. Technique, then, would not be enough for such a person, as it's as emotional as it is physical to him or her.

I concur. We reach a rung in the ladder of development, then, when appropriate, we reach the next rung above us. Yet, there's no reason why a practitioner CAN'T revisit previous rungs for one reason or another; absolutely.

Must mastery=perfection? I don't think so. I think that it requires a high level of skill and experience, but I don't think that "perfection" has to enter into the equation.

I agree. Perfection is impossible because we're not perfect! Mastery is an illusion that will reach up and smack you one to just remind you that you're not all that and a bag of chips like you thought you were.