learning vs understanding vs applying vs mastery/perfection

[bushido_man96]

Good post, Joe. I think I would put proficiency in with the #2 and 3 in the heirarchy listed in the original post that ironsifu made. Its an important step on the road to mastery, for sure (oops, there's that work again...).

[ironsifu]

i think there has to be a difference between mastery (skill) vs. mastery (understanding), otherwise we end up with confusion.

for some people a master of an art is one who has great skill, and can use his art in almost all situations, and better than most people--even most experts. i do not see "master" as a level of the martial arts you test for, or that some "grandmaster" gives you. kind of like a mechanic who can do any mechanical repair with only a wrench and screw driver and none of those special tools. i dont know if you guys know what i'm talking about, but i once met an old man who worked like that, out of his garage, he did everything with very few tools, even made some of his own devices, and lots of work he did it very quickly... for 50 buck and a case of beer (lol). this is the master of skill, and in my opinion, i value this master most.

the other kind of master is one whose been around a long time, and is more of a philosopher than a fighter, even philosophy of fighting, but he is known more for his knowledge than his skill. the kind of guy who comes up with great ideas and very neat demonstrations of techniques, but he is not known as a killer on the mat. this master is usually a master teachers, and most people assume he is a great fighter, without ever seeing him fight. i value this master as well, but because my teachers were fighters/sparrers, its not high on my list.

here's my example of a master of skill:

masutatsu oyama

cung lee

joe lewis

emin botzepe

bernard hopkins

masters of knowledge:

ed parker

bruce lee

william cheung

gichin funakoshi

floyd maywether, sr.

a true master, in my opinion, is a combination of both.

[tallgeese]

I think it's too much deliation. If they're better than you, get on the floor and train with them. If they aren't as good, get on the floor and train them.

Worry more about your own ability to defend youself than any artifical title that others might feel the need to bestow. That's about the long and short of how I feel about any distinctions past mere rank.

[tori]

I met an old asian instructor who thought the rank or title of Master was overused by Martial Artist. His own definition of Master was, "one who has learned everything there is to know in his style." He stated that Master should only be given to those who have passed away, as they truly no longer can learn anymore in their art. He would not allow anyone to call him Master or any other title other than Sensei. I don't know what ever happened to him, but he gave me alot to think about in many aspects of my own training.

[ironsifu]

I met an old asian instructor who thought the rank or title of Master was overused by Martial Artist. His own definition of Master was, "one who has learned everything there is to know in his style." He stated that Master should only be given to those who have passed away, as they truly no longer can learn anymore in their art. He would not allow anyone to call him Master or any other title other than Sensei. I don't know what ever happened to him, but he gave me alot to think about in many aspects of my own training.

i dont believe that "Master" is a level people get to, its a state of being in the martial arts. i agree with tall geese that people focus too much on trying to get the title, rather than simply mastering their art. but i do not agree that we should treat our martial arts casual as if it was no big deal. we should always strive for perfection in the art, unless someone is just doing martial arts for fitness.

but there is a difference between martial arts students, and martial artists. the student is just that, a student--he is taking a class. but a martial artist is one who makes this art a way of life. all of my posts are directed at the martial artist, and my teaching is only for those who are on that path. anyone who joins without that understanding, this is how i teach them. the goal for me is, to make martial artists who will one day master the art.

[tallgeese]

I'm the last person that will ever say that training shouldn't be taken serioulsy. I firmly beleive that it should be treated with deadly earnest.

However, that's the training. It's the formality and titles that I think can be taken casually if one so chooses. labeling or not has litttle to do with the serious level of one's training.

[ironsifu]

i agree with you for the titles, to me, its a business term. but the mastery i am talking about is the level of skill, experience and knowledge and where they meet. when this level is achieved, then the person has mastered the art.

it isnt right to have "master" as a level in a curriculum, that's business and its for ego and stuff. but you can say that someone has "mastered" the art or a technique within an art.

[BDPulver]

and that is where one will never get mastery. Like my O-sensei said along with tori. One will never achieve mastery of the art until they have found nothing in the art to learn from period. There is always knowlegde there on techniques/forms/principles and people to learn from.

[joesteph]

[A] martial artist is one who makes this art a way of life. . . .

I disagree. This leaves out the family man and the career woman who also study intently. Everyone need not be, nor be the equivalent of, a Shaolin monk.

[A]ll of my posts are directed at the martial artist . . .

No. You're directing your posts to those whom you consider to be in the category of how you define "martial artist." It's so narrow, most members of these forums wouldn't be "directed at" because we lead broader lives.

[T]he goal for me is, to make martial artists who will one day master the art.

Which leads us to what BDPulver and Tori respond with:

Like my O-sensei said along with tori. One will never achieve mastery of the art until they have found nothing in the art to learn from period. There is always knowlegde there on techniques/forms/principles and people to learn from. (emphasis added)

[ironsifu]

people have to expect more from their martial arts, besides recreation. a "martial artist" in my definition is not somebody who does martial arts instead of work, it is the person who is pursuing the training and skill in martial arts as a part of their life. even if you only trained one day a week, its more about how you view your path in the martial arts. a guy who is looking at it as just recreation will only get but so far in his art. yeah, maybe he is in good shape and can defend himself but there is something much deeper. those who dont know, just dont know. but i am not saying, quit your job and be a karate bum. what i am talking about is striving for the next degree of skill... this does not happen just because we've moved forward month after month. most people studying the martiala arts will actually decline in skill after 5 years of training, and thats a fact.

for the part about you never really master the art, that is figure of speech stuff. if you never have a hope of perfecting the art, there is no use in training in the first place. but that saying, i believe, is true for the average person studying martial arts. but like i said earlier, not everyone is cut out for this level of training and achievement. most people will study the art for 15 years (if they make it that long), and you would not be able to tell the difference between them and a shopping center black belt. but there is a small percentage that will make people remember who they are. if a teacher is not capable to create this kind of student, he has no business teaching. i agree with you BDPulver and joesteph, that most people are not going to ever achieve it, or even pursue it, but there is that possiblitiy for those who want it and have the discipline and courage to go and get it.

and can you achieve mastery of the art while working a career someplace else and having a family? of course, but you need 1. the right teacher, 2. the right kind of training plan 3. the right philosophy about what your doing.