long time of medium workouts or a few very intense workouts

[ironsifu]

this is cross over from the "credible teachers" thread.

i think we have a good topic to debate, so instead of mess up that thread i decided to start a new one.

here's the question. i suggested that teachers should take about 3 months of very intense training on one technique, say 1,000 reps per workout plus sparring with the technique, in order to strengthen skill. another member suggested that less intense workout can give the same skill because eventually, you will do the same number of strikes.

my side: i disagree. in order for you to reach your peak in speed, power, and accuracy, you have to train a technique when your body is fatigue. you must also be capable of doing a high numbers of those techniques, so that you will have the maximum power speed and accuracy behind even just one attack using this technique. one push up a day for 100 days will not develop the strength like doing 100 pushups in one day (or 10 pushups in 10 days, etc.). this theory can easily be tested and proven or unproved, but since this is a message board, let's discuss it! lol

i'm not saying killer workout all the time, but we have to have these workouts very often or skill will never get beyond average. i was raised with this kind of training so i never tried the other way... even in my kids class we use high reps.

[joesteph]

From your postings in the other thread and the references you made above, Ironsifu, it's easily seen that the workouts are intense, and the amount of time devoted is substantial. I also see you equating students with fighters, or fighters-in-training.

Are you speaking of students who can devote full time to these workouts, not having the responsibilities that we encounter in society, from school (including homework), a job, and social obligations ranging from family responsibilities to holidays? If so, these are unique students who can prioritize martial arts training in order to avoid, as you referred to in your OP, "never get[ting] beyond average."

If you are speaking of students who are to fulfill those responsibilities I've mentioned above at the same time, then that's another situation, more of a reflection of the lives we lead.

[ironsifu]

i consider any student who trains every week, to be a full time student.

most of my guys only train one day a week, and only a few can make it two or three days a week. my beginners usually train one day, and the more advance ones come more than that. the kids seem like they never get tired or sore, and they come two days a week, and do my sparring training on sundays.

guess what, even though they do one day a week, they develop high skill level just with one class.

[tallgeese]

Your mistaking my methodology with intensity.

You should be training quite intensly at whatever you do. Intensity is what will develop mindset to win fights. Just because your not just focusing on a single movement dosn't mean you're not training intensly.

The repetition I mentioned dosne't mean that the reps of a given movment shouldn't be given intently. Of course they should, it just means that eventually, you'll complete an equal number of reps. All should be performed with intensity.

Again, my argument is that a more well rounded approach will give a fighter a more diversified skill base quicker. Given the sheer number of situations and variables that a sd focused ma-ist might encounter, this is needed. You can't focus solely on a jab for signifigant training period at the expense of skill building in aspects of the ground game, clinch, other strikes, weapons, ect.

You're essintailly building a one trick pony if you spend too much time on one thing, and if that trick dosn't work, your out of luck. That's not to say you can't have focus on different aspects. Of course that will happen. But not exclusive work.

For instance, I usually structure workouts that build off a basic set of movements that accomplish the principles I'm looking for. Then, more compexity is added that makes the student move thru ranges and different tools. This way, you're repping the basic movements many times, but building onto a more complete combative structure the whole time. The total package gets trained in this way.

Repetion is important, as is focus. I just feel that it's important to train integration of skills as much as we teach skills themselves. It's these transitions and integrations that will be truely helpful during live conflicts.

[Tiger1962]

my side: i disagree. in order for you to reach your peak in speed, power, and accuracy, you have to train a technique when your body is fatigue.

I have to disagree with this statement. I know from personal experience that if you train when your body is fatigued, you risk getting an injury.

Training hard while at the same time knowing when to give my body a rest has never stopped me from reaching my peak in my training or in a particular technique.

[FitOrDie]

Training for skills requires much, much more time than training for fitness. Usually, half an hour is all you need for fitness training. Skills training, well, professionals do that all day long.

[bushido_man96]

Training while fatigued can be beneficial, but it has to be done carefully.

I am more of the same opinion that tallgeese is on this subject. Although I agree that the intensity level should be high (you should strike "in earnest"), at some point, the learning curve will level off and plateau. Once you start reaching that point, I think you can better spend your time focusing on different things, so as to increase your knowledge base.

In the end, I don't think that you are learning something different at the cost of something else.

I can see the benefit in training one technique a thousand times a day, for months on end. I am sure that it will develop a technique quite well. However, I think that you need to develop that technique in conjuction with other techniques, as well, and at the same time.

I do think that it is important to gain a fundamental understanding of each single technique that we do. Basics training, so to speak. At the same time, it is important to move onwards and upwards, too.

[bushido_man96]

training on a technique for three months will not hurt the rest of your skill. as i said earlier, we have to stop treating martial arts training as if its a race, you have your whole life to learn. at the same time, students/fighters (another point, i consider them the same thing) must develop there skill to the highest level and the best way to do this is to have a patient tempering of skill. some people never get the ability to throw 500 punches in one time, there will be a limit to what level his skill with achieve. 3 months is not a long time, and if you look at it like this, three months on this three months on that, in the end you will have a high skill level in most of your techniques, while the next guy is only average at all of his techniques.

In regards to the first statement here, training one skill for 3 months, and not training/maintaining you other skills while doing this, can hurt your training, in my opinion. The saying “use it or lose it” comes to mind.

When it comes to treating Martial Arts as a race…..there are two ways that I look at it. One, is the life-long MAist, the person who has signed up for class, and goes 2, 3, or 5 times a week, and plans on doing it forever. I think that many of us here are this kind of person. The MAs are a part of who we are, and can’t imagine not doing any. In this case, I don’t think MA training is a race. However, I don’t think stating this is an excuse to say that one might not be able to effectively defend oneself while training with me within a fairly brief period of time because I think that they should have to spend years mastering the art/s that I have. I may not be making someone into a professional fighter, or a hardened black belt, but I think that if someone is going to come to class, then I should be able to teach them to effectively defend themselves within a much shorter period of time that it takes to master an art, which the second point of view.

[ironsifu]

you cannot possibly train all of your techniques that you know in every workout. when people train, they usually are only training a few skills at a time, and there can be months that go past that you will not work on something, but you still have skill at it. three months and focusing on one skill will not hurt your other skills especially if you come back to it. if you have time, you can always do one workout a week on one skill and one or two workouts on other things. but my point was to focus on one skill at a time, and once you have achieve that skill, you carry it with you always, and all you have to do is keep it up with just a little bit of training.

there is a level of skill you can only get with fierce training, and if somebody is serious about his martial arts training (oppose to "casual training/learning/just some self defense skill) it has to be done, and i recommend having this kind of training all the time for different skills. with my own students there is always a theme, one skill or technique, that we are focused on at all times. sometimes, we will not train legs for a month, some times we will not train hands for a month. but because they are always training with high intensity, they never missed a beat.

if somebody has mediocre skill, or poor skill, than i agree, missing three months of training will really hurt. but when you are always bringing up all your skills with good training, high reps and a lot of focused sparring, your body stays at a peak condition. right now it is point fighting season around here, and every year most of my training is focused on skills they can use in competition. does there form suffer? how about boxing skills? or power punching and power kicking? the answer is no, no, and no.

like i said earlier my brothers, get in 10,000 reps of a technique, you will have a skill most othere people can only imaging, and if you do this with each of the major skills in your art, in a few years you can double your strength and skill...

this is why a professional fighter (any style) will always be superior to the average fighter, no matter how "natural" and "gifted" the average guy is. great skill is never born with, only developed.

[bushido_man96]

I agree that great skill is developed. I have never disagreed with that idea.

No, you really can't train every technique you know in each training session. But, you shouldn't have to, either. But, it is important to cover more than just one technique per session, in my mind. I think that it is important to work a technique, build the technique, and then work with applications with the technique. All the while, you work in those reps. You might not hit 10,000 within 3 months, but you will have a good idea of how to do it, and how to apply it.