trouble with backstance, need suggestions

[SlowHands]

hi guys, long time lurker here with a pressing question. i've recently started practicing again after a ten yr hiatus and some things have changed in regards to the style. obviously, i'm not as flexible as i once was and i'm sure that can be remedied with time.

i've been having some particular trouble with the placement of the rear foot and knee for the backstance. specifically, my foot is turning out too much and my knee isn't over the big toe. however whenever i try to correct this it feels tight along my shin and calves and its difficult to move into and out of it without losing fluidity.

does anyone have any suggestions on practice techniques to nail this down, or a mental mantra of some sort?

oh, and in case anyone is curious the style i study is Hakua-kai which is a mix of jiujitsu, shotokan, and wado-ryu.

thnx!

[joesteph]

i've been having some particular trouble with the placement of the rear foot and knee for the backstance. . . . however whenever i try to correct this it feels tight along my shin and calves and its difficult to move into and out of it without losing fluidity.

Have you tried old-fashioned (or is it "tried and true"?) calf raises to bolster the area? As long as you do them slowly, and don't "bounce" up and down with the movement, calf raises might be helpful for the target area. Do set (3-4) of high reps (15-20) for the best results.

You don't need a weight across your shoulders, and don't do them any more than two-to-three times a week. The old way was to hammer away at them. The newer way of thinking is that they're like any other muscle, needing recovery time.

[Kruczek]

Well I just typed up a solution for "cat stance" only to realize you said "back stance"...I don't have this stance - if you could give me a photo or a description I may have some suggestions. One thing I have found that helps with almost all stances is to stand in shizentai dachi (natural stance) so feet shoulder length apart and staggered.

From there you should slowly transition into the stance. If you wanted to go to "horse stance" from there for instance you would slowly lower your body shift some weight to your left and slide your right leg slowly out and shift the weight back, hold it and then shift back the same way.

By going very slow back and forth you build the muscles, train them to transition from one stance to another, and if there is something that makes it hurt you can better figure out EXACTLY what makes it hurt.

Not to seem oblivious, but aren't some stances just a bit painful when you aren't used to them? We were always told cat stance should "hurt" when you first start.

[bushido_man96]

Here are some of the standards that I was originally taught the back stance:

1. With your feet together, make an L with them. The lead foot will point forward, and the rear foot (that bears most of the weight) will point 90 degrees. The feet should make a right angle to each other.

2. Start out with 3 or your own feet length for the stance. Measure the foot that points forward in kind of a heel-to-toe fashion so that you get to 3 of your own foot's length out. Lengthen the stance as you feel comfortable, but remember; if it becomes difficult to transition out of, then it is too deep or long.

3. 70% weight on rear leg, and 30% on the front leg. The front leg should be easy to pick up and kick with, without having to move the body too much to telegraph. Something that I have focused on of late is keeping the weight more to the toes, as opposed to being on the heels in the stance. Bend the knees good, but not so much that you can't come out of the stance without a noticible adjustment.

These points should help you to keep the knee over the toe of the rear leg, and should help you get more comfortable with the stance.

These are only some basic teaching guidelines that I use. Depending on height, leg length, etc., you may be longer or shorter than others. In time, you'll figure out how your body likes it.

Welcome back to the MAs, and welcome to KarateForums.com!

[SlowHands]

awesome. thanks for the tips guys, i'll definitely try them out.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I would ask your instructor.

Trying to give tips on such things is often misleading. You have to be able to see a person in the stance they are having trouble with, before you can pass comment.

Also different styles will use different terminology / approaches.

Some styles refer to back stance as a stance where the majority of the weight is supported on the back foot (but spine is vertical), whilst others will refer to these as cat stances. In Japanese these are typically referred to as "Nekoashi-dachi" or "kōkutsu-dachi"

Alternatively, some refer to back stances as stances where you would lean (your spine) backward (away from the attack), again with majority of weight on back foot. These are also often referred to as "kōkutsu-dachi".

In addition, some styles emphasise that for good form in kihon, the front heel should be off the floor, others keep it on the floor.

There are also varying degrees of cat stances (nekoashi) from the point of view of leg/weight distribution and the hip position to front.

1. Shomen - hips forward facing - AKA short cat stance (20/80 weight dist)

2. Hanmi - Hips half (ie 45deg) - (30/70 weight dist)

3. Ma-Hanmi - Hips more than half - AKA long cat stance (40/60 weight dist).

So you need to understand your schools requirements and then chat your problems through with your sensei I would suggest.

[solar_kid]

I would add to be patient with yourself. Back stance is a difficult stance to get right. And, it's so different from the way we usually deploy our weight that our bodies are not used to it until they do it a lot.

You might try practicing your back stance for several minutes at a time while watching TV or some other activity. Try making the back stance for 2-3 minutes (harder than it sounds!) on one side, then switch to the other. If you can't get your knees pushed out over your toes, do your best and over time you will be able to get there. Honestly, for most new students, it can take a couple of years of practice.

You might also practice moving forward and backward from one back stance to the next. This might also help train your body to make the stance better.

Just keep in mind your body adapts slowly, so be diligent but patient.

[Killer Miller]

Bushido, you are right on. Except on #2, it should be 2 shoulder widths in length (no more than that or you won't be able to recover), I don't know if 3 steps equates to the same or not...

Also, if the knees are bent past the big toe, and not to it, you will not be able to recover from the stance. Additionally, you must keep outside tension on the knees at all times when in back stance (Kokustu-dachi).

- Killer -

Here are some of the standards that I was originally taught the back stance:

1. With your feet together, make an L with them. The lead foot will point forward, and the rear foot (that bears most of the weight) will point 90 degrees. The feet should make a right angle to each other.

2. Start out with 3 or your own feet length for the stance. Measure the foot that points forward in kind of a heel-to-toe fashion so that you get to 3 of your own foot's length out. Lengthen the stance as you feel comfortable, but remember; if it becomes difficult to transition out of, then it is too deep or long.

3. 70% weight on rear leg, and 30% on the front leg. The front leg should be easy to pick up and kick with, without having to move the body too much to telegraph. Something that I have focused on of late is keeping the weight more to the toes, as opposed to being on the heels in the stance. Bend the knees good, but not so much that you can't come out of the stance without a noticible adjustment.

These points should help you to keep the knee over the toe of the rear leg, and should help you get more comfortable with the stance.

These are only some basic teaching guidelines that I use. Depending on height, leg length, etc., you may be longer or shorter than others. In time, you'll figure out how your body likes it.

Welcome back to the MAs, and welcome to KarateForums.com!

[ps1]

I'm not going to address the proper foot placement, width ect... You're instructors will guide that.

It seems to me that you seem more concerned with a loss of fluidity due to tightness through the calves and knees. Your main problem is that you're expecting too much of yourself too soon. The answer, simplistic as it may be, is to simply keep practicing. Your body will adapt with time and you won't even notice it before long. Once your body adapts to this unique position, you'll begin to feel fluid again.

Hope that helps! Good luck and keep us posted on that.

[bushido_man96]

Bushido, you are right on. Except on #2, it should be 2 shoulder widths in length (no more than that or you won't be able to recover), I don't know if 3 steps equates to the same or not...

Also, if the knees are bent past the big toe, and not to it, you will not be able to recover from the stance. Additionally, you must keep outside tension on the knees at all times when in back stance (Kokustu-dachi).

- Killer -

Hey, Killer. For the most part, I just listed teaching guidelines that I have used or been taught over time. For the most part, though, I list the importance of being able to transition out of the stance easily and comfortably as being of prior importance.