Technique should be easy? Size and Power don't matter?

[NightOwl]

On that note something really creepy:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/banihasan.htm

Images cleared up and where I found the links:

http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7822&pid=124366&mode=threaded&start=#entry124366

[joesteph]

"Creepy" is one way to describe it.

That first link NightOwl found has, at the bottom of the web page/article, a photo of an Egyptian wall painting depicting numerous wrestling techniques that were practiced 4,000 years ago.

At the second link, the picture really is clearer. There's an entry below the picture by "Joseph Svinth," and his link brings you to his explanation (e.g., why the figures are in different colors) and links to more photos and a Pankration site.

Does this mean that the Egyptians developed wrestling first, then the Greeks picked it up, then it spread . . .

Or maybe every society developed something martial, and possibly borrowed from or influenced others, or both--or neither? We'll probably keep tracing it back, cultures that interacted, cultures that didn't, and wind up with Fred and Barney going at it after a hard day's work at the stone quarry.

Great finds, NightOwl.

[bushido_man96]

...it is amazing how martial arts, frequently with great similarities, are shared by such diverse cultures. (Or, as the article suggests, there can be cultural influence traveling over the centuries from location to location, society to society, that Pankration began in Greece, was spread eastward by Alexander the Great's conquests to India, where it took root, passed on to China, and then to Japan.)

I think that this viewpoint of the evolution of the Martial Arts in general is rather recently being considered, but I don't know how much stock most practitioners put into it; I just feel that many people want to hold on to the perceived Eastern roots of the MAs. However, I do like seeing this idea being passed around, and the fact that it opens things up for interpretation a bit.

Reading the blurb on the website that NightOwl posted showed some of the comparisons that we see still today between the sport and art aspects and discussions that we have. One thing that I did note that was absent from the account, was the inclusion of striking; but it was just a Wrestling match.

[Adonis]

Yes, combat sports are a different set of circumstances. But they are sports derived from combat, which should say something.

Technique is a valuable tool. It will ceratily enhance the capabilities of the big, heavy fighter. And yes, good technique can help to off set the natural advantages taht a bigger attacker possesses.

I just think that the size factor gets down played too often by ma-ist of all varieties. That's all.

Just because you hit an attacker in vital areas dosn't mean he's going to stop or that the tactic will be effective, even if it is deployed perfectly to vunerable. The ability of an untrained, heavy strong fighter to tackle and bear you to the ground should never be underestimated (which is why some form of grappling training is highly useful). This can present a seriois problem for any trainied fighter.

Again, it's not that these are unsurmountable advantages, but they are advantages that deserve respect and realistic evaluation.

Pretty much articulates my OP far better then I did.

It seems that those who have more grappling experience have a better understanding of the importance of this factor. Mainly based on the constant contact compared to when striking where it isn't felt when conact is made with the body mass behind the technique.

[MMA_Jim]

bushido_man:

We can also see from the most recent Gracie/Hughes match, with the evolution of the MMA athlete since the UFC's inception, that the balanced fighter, who can strike well, and manage a ground game, proved to be too much for Gracie's superior ground game.

This is true. However, I think what hurt Gracie the most in that match, in which all of the real action took place on the ground, was that Hughes, despite not being as skilled on the ground, was skilled enough that when combined with his strength advantage he was able to dominate on the ground. Sure, he had to pound Royce with strikes to finish the fight, but, he achieved that feat by gaining superior postion. A position which Royce, who is a far better grappler, couldn't escape.

Both of you have made an incorrect assumption- Royce is nowhere near the calibre grappler that Matt Hughes is. Hughes won his fight against Royce because hes a better submission grappler, a better wrestler, a better striker, bigger fighter, stronger fighter, and just simply better in all areas.

Hughes is a 4X NCAA Division I All American Wrestler and Abu Dhabi veteran who holds notable wins against name submission fighters. Royce's only real claim to fame is his 3 UFC victories. While itself being no small feat, Hughes accomplishments are much more impressive. Just because his last name is Gracie doesnt mean hes a better grappler. Hughes is a far better grappler than is Royce- the edge I would give to Royce is self defense jiu jitsu.

[tallgeese]

Hughes is certainly a better wrestler based on his pedigre. However, I'd still give the technical submission edge to Royce. Maybe that's what you were refering to in your last statement, I apologize if I misread it.

Hughs certainly has been very dominate on the ground, but due to his positional wrestling skills, not necissarly his submission or jj game. I'm not certain you can say he's a better "grappler". Of course, at some point, we're arguing semantics and nothing of real substance.

I think it's the fact that Hughes is just a better fighter that won the bout so easily for him. This goes back to what others have said before, the game evolved and Royce didn't. Hughes was part of that evolution and hence was more on the cutting edge of what combat athletes are now capable of.

Taking nothing away from Royce, he does have some great accomplishemtns. Hughes just hailed from an era that had innovated and integrated beyond what the Gracies had originally when they started the UFC's.

[bushido_man96]

Hughes is a 4X NCAA Division I All American Wrestler and Abu Dhabi veteran who holds notable wins against name submission fighters. Royce's only real claim to fame is his 3 UFC victories. While itself being no small feat, Hughes accomplishments are much more impressive. Just because his last name is Gracie doesnt mean hes a better grappler. Hughes is a far better grappler than is Royce- the edge I would give to Royce is self defense jiu jitsu.

I was aware of his Wrestling pedigree, but not of his Abu Dhabi experience. Thank you for clarifying this, and I apologize for the lack of information that I had.

[50inches]

its would be good to start doing martial arts weak, so you get flawless technique, and then build on muscles, and just stick to the good technique you already have

[ironsifu]

technique can beat superior physcial advantages, but only if you use the right technique against the opponent with the right amount of physical skill.

if would be wrong to say, even without strength or speed you can defend yourself. of course that is not true, but you can train a fighter to overwhelm a superior physical opponent by learning his weakness and take advantage of them using the right counters.

here is an example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmPx2ixbhlA

douglas was able to use his reach, by keeping a long distance, even though mike was stronger, faster, and douglas was exhausted.

even though he got his behind mopped up the next fight, using the right strategy a weaker opponent was able to beat a stronger one....

[MMA_Jim]

Hughes is much more than a better wrestler than Royce- hes just simply a better grappler. Being from a very modern (and successfull) MMA gym such as the Miletech camp, Hughes has top notch instruction. They have their own BJJ black belt instructor in Garth Taylor.

Im not saying that Royce isnt himself a skilled jiu jitsu fighter, but Hughes is without a doubt significantly better. This is argumentive simply from his record:

Hughes has notable wins over the following fighters:

George St Pierre

Frank Trigg

Renato Verissimo

BJ Penn

Joe Doerkson

Carlos Newton

Hayato Sakurai

Being game enough to avoid the submissions from the guard of Verissimo, who himself has a much better guard game than that of Royce, defeating a world champ jiu jitsu fighter in BJ Penn, and submitting a skilled submission fighter in St Pierre.

Who has Royce beaten decisively? (win via submission or ko/tko)

Once again, Im not attempting to bring Royce or his accomplishments down. While Hughes may be the better fighter and grappler, I'll guarentee that Royce is a much better instructor.

Thats the premise of Gracie Jiu Jitsu- its not having an aggressive guard game like you see from Nogueira, or worrying about appealing to the crowd with numerous submission attempts or winning on the cards. Its first and foremost about defending yourself. The type of jiu jitsu you see in modern day UFC is aggressive because it has to be, but its not the type that the Gracies prefer. Simply put, you cant teach a feeble non athletic person to put out that kind of effort. Matt Hughes may not be able to teach everyone how to fight on the ground, but Royce will.