Changing levels in combat.

[bushido_man96]

More reading material has prompted yet another discussion!

I read in Black Belt about an art called Albo Kali Silat, in which the practitioners learn to change levels of attack, from high to low, by actually kneeling or going supine, in their style.

I know that many of us here will use the idea of changing levels of attack, like by kicking the legs, and then moving up to punch the head, but it is usually all a standing thing. In this Silat style, they will actually kneel down to change their level. They will use their elbows to both attack and shield. They claim that with the proper peparation and practice, that they become quite agile at changing levels like this, and can use it to surprise their opponents.

I have seen in our Aikido classes, that some of the students of higher rank will do techniques from seiza (kneeling position), and although they tend to start kneeling and stay kneeling, I don't see why one couldn't start kneeling, and then finish standing, or start standing, and then finish kneeling. Capoeira is also known for its stylish flying kicks and hand stands, as well as its dropping and low level kicks. Not to mention the spinning.

My question is, would you consider looking into this strategy of changing levels of attack? The obvious drawback here, to me, would be the decrease in mobility in going to a kneeling position, and offering vital targets like the head at a more accessible level to the attacker.

So, how would you approach this?

[tallgeese]

I'd never do it intentionally. As you point out,now some of my most vunearble areas are exposed. Also, my mobility to get away just went to zero. And, it's now harder to access any weapons that I'm carrying.

That being said, I'd like to see it in action. It might have some real applications for being placed in a negitive position with a sucker punch or such.

[joesteph]

My instructor has had us do limited grappling with both students starting from a kneeling position as an intro to grappling and a training exercise in isolating how we utilize our own, and redirect our opponent's, force.

[JohnC]

Japanese culture includes spending a lot of time on one's knees or sitting on the floor, even now, thus the Aiki training. I'm not sure it's meaningful anywhere else.

Personally, I try to stay standing as much as I can, especially against a standing opponent.

[joesteph]

In "Comprehensive Karate" by Michael Rosenbaum, available by a free download from Iain Abernethy's site at:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/Comprehensive_Karate_Michael_Rosenbaum

on p. 87 it states:

All Fights Go To The Ground: This mantra has been perpetuated by the popularity of MMA events. However, during hand-to-hand combat, the first person going to the ground is usually the first to be killed. This maxim is thousands of years old and is found in all systems of mortal combat, from the ancient Greeks to the United States Marine Corps Martial Arts program.

[bushido_man96]

That's a good mantra, Joe. I think it holds true, for the most part. That's why I wonder about the types of movements and principles in this system. I'd like to see demonstrations of it.

[MMA_Jim]

In "Comprehensive Karate" by Michael Rosenbaum, available by a free download from Iain Abernethy's site at:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/Comprehensive_Karate_Michael_Rosenbaum

on p. 87 it states:

All Fights Go To The Ground: This mantra has been perpetuated by the popularity of MMA events. However, during hand-to-hand combat, the first person going to the ground is usually the first to be killed. This maxim is thousands of years old and is found in all systems of mortal combat, from the ancient Greeks to the United States Marine Corps Martial Arts program.

1: That statement is made by someone who has no or very limited knowledge of grappling. It seems as if its constructed so as to favor whatever "anti grappling" system he may be selling.

2: Ancient Greeks did Pankration, which utilizes an awful lot of grappling.

3: United States Marine Corps Martial Arts Program was developed in part by Rorion Gracie due to the great success BJJ had against all other styles of martial arts (including the "deadly" military ones).

4: Ground fighting involves two people- the first person to hit the ground usually got killed because the other person was more skilled at takedowns and grappling in general. For every person that got killed because they ended up on the ground there is another person who lived and won the fight because they took that fight there in the first place.

[tallgeese]

I'll be the first to defend grappling training as part of a comprehensive response system. I spend alot of time doing, and competed in mma. I know it has a place.

I will also note that it might not be the optimal tool in certain situation. Multiple atters come to mind, anytime I feel that I might need to quickly access a weapon is another. Granted, grappling training will only improve your odds of not getting put on the ground, which is again why i say you should be training in it.

However, there are alot of times outside the ring that it might not be an optimal choice of tactics.

[JohnC]

As yet I have been unable to find any credible evidence that "all fights go to the ground" or even that the majority do. The few attempts that I have seen to validate this idea tend to dispute the statement.

The idea that one should seek to go to the ground as a standard approach on the street or in combat seems a tactical mistake in my view, for a variety of operational reasons too numerous to enumerate.

This does not imply that a knowledge of grappling / ground fighting isn't necessary, as the other fellow might take you to the ground and you need to be able to fight. However, just because one knows how doesn't necessarily make it the best strategy.

[ryukasagi]

Going down on a knee may be useful sometimes but overall i think it would usually put you in more danger than the payoff it could bring.

As far as going to the ground, my objective in a fight is to stay as far from the ground as possible. I don't know how to fight on the ground and the street is a bad place to learn, also on the street people tend to have friends and weapons, which are also bad me being on the ground as it's harder to get away.