What is "Traditional?"

[bushido_man96]

The Martial Arts tend to be categorized, and the categories tend to go like this:

TMA: Traditional Martial Arts

MMA: Mixed Martial Arts

RBSD: Reality Based Self-Defense

XMA: Extreme Martial Arts

My question to the forum, is what constitues a "traditional" Martial Art? What are the "required" prerequisites necessary for one to even think about tagging their style as "traditional?"

I await your responses.

[NightOwl]

'Traditional' is a bit of a misnomer, as most TMAs as they are practiced are less than 100 years old (arguably most quite younger than that), especially the popular Korean and Japanese styles.

The only martial art I would feel comfortable giving a literal traditional label to might be koryu, although I too use the term 'TMA' in the general sense. Koryu martial arts, or Japanese martial arts being able to prove their existence before the Meiji restoration in the late 1800's, have documented histories and traditions via the fact that Japan was somewhat unique in that a good portion of its fighting styles were practiced by an upper class more prone to literacy. Although I might argue that some of them have toned down training methods, Koryu are not trained for learning a martial art as much as preserving a cultural tradition and lifestyle, a tradition that is hundreds of years old in the truest sense.

As for what TMA means now, it tends to refer to a method of training and mindset more than anything else IMO. It can both be derogatory (outdated training) or complementary (tradition, values, and a focus or real combat).

[cross]

For me i think most people recognize traditional martial arts to be those with an eastern background, i.e karate, tkd, kung fu etc. It seems that the length of time the art has been around isnt really taken into consideration.

[tallgeese]

I'd agree with cross. That's a pretty good analysis.

Granted some serious updating can go into those classes. So I'd add that it would be as stated but without any signifigant modification, ie. still heavy reliance on kata, classic weapons use, in karate based systems you'd still see deep long and hose stances, ect.

[joesteph]

Many people likely think of traditional as meaning there's a long history to that MA, but I think Night Owl's right that an art may have a relatively short history when compared with other martial arts, and yet may still be considered "traditional." Non-practitioners of that art would be unaware, thinking the art is centuries old; practitioners would look for certain components of the art that say "tradition" to them.

We do tend to think of traditional, as Cross pointed out, when we refer to Eastern origins; wrestling and boxing have existed in the West since the Classical Civilizations of Greece and Rome, but "tradition" does not bring them to mind. We look for the katas, deep stances, gis, and belt ranks that make us think Eastern and even Eastern=traditional. Tallgeese's reference to the horse stance, for example, would make anyone think of a karateka in uniform holding such a stance, perhaps with fists clenched one on each side, palms up and elbows back.

I wonder if an art is "fundamentally" traditional when it resists change, its aim being to preserve the art as the founder established it. Other arts are discovered to have their treasures, such as the Muay Thai roundhouse that uses the shin, but these are discouraged regarding inclusion in the traditional art. The founder, if alive in later years, would perhaps not approve the refusal, but the successors do not think this would be so, meaning the more an art is steeped in tradition, the more stagnant it can become. This may be done in the name of keeping the art "pure."

By that last reasoning, pure=true in their minds. Then does true=pure?

Tradition is the illusion of permanence. Knowing what is traditional in your art, respecting it, and knowing when a change must be embraced are all tricky to juggle. We might ask ourselves if something can be "true" today, but not "true" tomorrow, or have been "true" in the past, but time has marched on.

[tori]

Traditional to me is just something that has been passed down from generation to generation. I know there is not alot of explanation behind that, but who am I to say what Martial Art is traditional or McDojo.

[bushido_man96]

Traditional to me is just something that has been passed down from generation to generation. I know there is not alot of explanation behind that, but who am I to say what Martial Art is traditional or McDojo.

I think that this is what many like to think of as traditional. However, I think what cross states is actually more accurate:

For me i think most people recognize traditional martial arts to be those with an eastern background, i.e karate, tkd, kung fu etc. It seems that the length of time the art has been around isnt really taken into consideration.

We do tend to think of traditional, as Cross pointed out, when we refer to Eastern origins; wrestling and boxing have existed in the West since the Classical Civilizations of Greece and Rome, but "tradition" does not bring them to mind.

This has been something that has always bothered me, too. I am proud of the Western heritage of fighting and warriorship, and I think it is something that isn't as appreciated as it is from the Eastern viewpoint, even though it is just as valid and established.

[NightOwl]

Traditional to me is just something that has been passed down from generation to generation. I know there is not alot of explanation behind that, but who am I to say what Martial Art is traditional or McDojo.

I think that this is what many like to think of as traditional. However, I think what cross states is actually more accurate:

For me i think most people recognize traditional martial arts to be those with an eastern background, i.e karate, tkd, kung fu etc. It seems that the length of time the art has been around isnt really taken into consideration.

We do tend to think of traditional, as Cross pointed out, when we refer to Eastern origins; wrestling and boxing have existed in the West since the Classical Civilizations of Greece and Rome, but "tradition" does not bring them to mind.

This has been something that has always bothered me, too. I am proud of the Western heritage of fighting and warriorship, and I think it is something that isn't as appreciated as it is from the Eastern viewpoint, even though it is just as valid and established.

I'd definitely agree with you guys on the western arts. However it can apply to eastern martial arts as well. Judo is much older than Shotokan karate, yet it is often considered a 'modern' martial art and shotokan 'traditional', which is why I think the TMA label has less to do with tradition and more to do with philosophy.

Although to a point, many western arts are not that old but have very long historical roots. Boxing is different from the bare knuckle days of yore, Greco-Roman is actually based off of a french style of wrestling and has nothing to do with Greece or Rome, and freestlye/collegiate wrestling is derived from many other grappling styles and condensed (western grappling used to have subs in the traditional 'catch' wrestling style once popular in the USA, but it has since fallen to freestyle and Collegiate wrestling made for education).

[moriniuk]

In my opinion what makes a martial art traditional is partly it's content and partly the way it is practiced.

Practices that have been handed down over the generations as a tradition.

But I would also consider the relatively new martial arts and styles to be traditional if they involve traditional techniques practiced in a traditional way.

I don't think it matters where in the world the art originated. It's more of a time thing. But just how much time is required, I don't know.

If we compare martial arts to music. A piece of "classical" music can be written and performed in the present day and still be considered to be "classical" alongside the old classics. This is because it is written and performed in a certain way that conforms to a tradition.

Rock, pop and reggae etc. wouldn't be considered traditional at the moment, but in the future I'm sure that people will be refering to traditional forms of these musical genres.

[bushido_man96]

But I would also consider the relatively new martial arts and styles to be traditional if they involve traditional techniques practiced in a traditional way.

This is an interesting thought. I would think that many "traditionalists" (I'm not saying you are, just saying) would probably have a problem with this. Perhaps others with an opinion could chime in, but I don't think it would be looked upon favorably.