Kata Thoughts

[Kuma]

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention:

Yes, if you did want to learn throws you could in fact just go train in Judo. A good Judoka is definitely a tough fighter. However, Judo also has their atemi-waza (striking techniques) so to really use those a Judoka would have to learn some form of striking in return; otherwise, he's not getting much out of those either. Since karate was the base of the Kodokan atemi-waza, in essence he would have to learn karate to truly make those effective.

Of course, as an alternate route for both, you could find someone who is experienced enough to teach you those techniques and principles outside of a full class regimen and effectively cross-train without having to go through the whole shebang of training in an entirely new MA in the first place. In this way it can build off of what you already know, rather than something brand new.

[NightOwl]

Thats one of the things that doesnt make sense to me when it comes to bunkai. You learn the kata, and as you mention, one of the techniques looks kinda like a judo throw, but unless you are taught how to do the throw correctly, you are not going to be able perform it just because you have done a movement that is similar in a kata.

The way i see it, if you want to learn how to do that throw, go to a judo school and they will teach you how to perform it correctly, with a partner. Same thing if you want to learn grappling techniques, go to a bjj/wrestling school and learn how to perform the techniques straight up without having to march around doing moves in a kata that sortof resemble what your doing if you have a good imagination.

Bas Rutten saying he likes kata may be an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. I doubt you will ever see ufc fighters doing kata during their pre fight training, they have far more productive and benificial ways to spend their training time, and thats reflected in the routines they follow.

Naturally you'd have to train it using an alive manner for it to be useful. Much like no boxer would simply do shadowboxing, you need to train what you do in a live manner to get good at it. That's why the renewed interest in karate bunkai using Straight Blast Gym training (progressive resistance and aliveness drills) is awesome to me. Iain Abernethy is probably the most well-known example, but there are others.

I'm fortunate with my training though. Our organization for Kyokushin allows throws, sweeps, and limited groundfighting so we get to train in them. I'm also fortunate that not only is Sensei Manny of my dojo a sandan in Kyokushin but also a godan in Judo. Because of his judo background he gets to see a lot of things others wouldn't. To me that's why one needs to cross-train if they want to see more in their art.

Of course. Won't argue with you on that. I just think that when a man like that gives advice, it's worthwhile to take note. I'm pretty sure Lyoto Machida does his kata as well, but as you said, it's one part of the whole package. A fighter who does only bagwork has just as much of a chance as winning as one who only does kata. It's only one part of the entire deal.

The question is if Lyloto Machida (one of my favorite fighters if only because he adapts Shotokan for the mma scene which I think is awesome) DOESN'T practice Kata will that negatively impact his performance and ability? What if he didn't practice bagwork or sparring? The latter two would probably have negative results, but kickboxing, boxing, kyokushin (to a point, I know they practice kata but sparring is extremely important) Judo, BJJ, SAMBO, Sanshou, Shuai Jiao, Bruce Lee and JKD, etc all practice with no to little kata and produce some of the best results (Kano famously taking the focus off kata in his training and then beating the top Tokyo Jujutsu Dojos of the day which had a very heavy kata emphasis around the turn of the century in the late 1880's).

There have been plenty of great fighters who came from kata practicing systems. But they got their ability not through the kata, but resistance training and drill work (not a new concept but Straight Blast Gym has done a good job of promoting it). Take out the kata, and you lose a traditional method of practice, but performance has not been shown to suffer both historically and in the modern day from not practicing it. In fact, many times the opposite has been shown to hold true because you have more time spent training the actual techniques of the system.

If such training were undertaken in any other sport, people wouldn't even consider it. For instance, let's say you see me on a tennis court slowly moving to the side then squatting low, swinging my arm, and repeating that again in the opposite direction, finishing the 'kata' by swinging my arm over my head. Sometimes I would hold a racket and have someone slowly toss a ball at me and I would lightly tap it with a backhand from the tennis kata. I would practice mostly the kata and some focused swings for the most part, and very rarely I might engage in a light tennis match. Of course if someone trained as this for 5 years and went into an actual tennis match, they would probably loose to someone who just focused on the needed swings and serves by drilling them, then engaging in regular speed and intensity tennis. However because many martial arts come from a tradition and cultures that do not always question such things, I think people are less likely to question them.

Anyways that's all I have to say. I don't think we are going to change each other's way of thinking so we are going to have to agree to disagree

[Kuma]

As I said before, I don't necessarily think one needs to practice kata to be able to fight. I used to box growing up and there was plenty of guys in my community gym who could fight well and wouldn't know the first thing about kata. However, much like a lot of things, boxing took out the old rules they used to have and once it was no longer considered useful in a sporting environment, those techniques fell to the wayside.

In much the same way that can happen to any martial art. It's through kata we keep the spirit of the art alive. That's why the Kodokan has atemi-waza that their students learn. You can't use it in randori, but it's a part of Judo and to truly master Judo you need to know every aspect of it.

Perhaps I'm the odd man out, being a knockdown fighter who enjoys practicing kata. I think it helps me, so you won't see me stopping anytime soon.

[bushido_man96]

I do think that forms tend to become attached to rank, and therefore curriculum. I think that most styles have at least one form per rank that they push the students through. Unfortunately, it is this way in my school. The form you do is representative of your rank, and to me, it seems like that is about it.

I think this ties back with the original purpose of kata. You learned a new kata at a higher rank because that is when you were supposed to learn those new moves (again, going off off old JMAs as a reference).

I was under the impression that originally, kata was taught, and then applied, and the number didn't matter; some masters only focused on one kata.

Didn't Funakoshi do Tekki for 7 years or so, before he was even taught another kata?

[NightOwl]

I do think that forms tend to become attached to rank, and therefore curriculum. I think that most styles have at least one form per rank that they push the students through. Unfortunately, it is this way in my school. The form you do is representative of your rank, and to me, it seems like that is about it.

I think this ties back with the original purpose of kata. You learned a new kata at a higher rank because that is when you were supposed to learn those new moves (again, going off off old JMAs as a reference).

I was under the impression that originally, kata was taught, and then applied, and the number didn't matter; some masters only focused on one kata.

Didn't Funakoshi do Tekki for 7 years or so, before he was even taught another kata?

The Okinawans seemed to have a unique stance towards kata, only teaching one for long stretches of time( although the also fought bareknuckle at times too, here is a nice article on shotokan and karate: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/01/29/funakoshi-man-vs-myth/ ). However as I touched on, I was using Japanese martial arts as a reference. The Japanese had a very structured way of practicing martial arts ( http://Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C5%8D_Jikiden_Eishin-ry%C5%AB ) with rank and specific kata sets per rank at times. While karate didn't initially follow this route, it adapted the japanese system from kata per rank, to uniforms. This went on in turn to influence the korean martial arts and how they were taught as well. Chinese arts many times follow the japanese system too ('sashes' instead of belts), and thus in the eastern martial arts the original purpose of kata in japan has spread worldwide.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I would agree that in the case of a cage fighter, time practicing kata would better spent else where, but this actually raises another interesting point about kata.

If you look at many of the styles that don't utilise kata, (or they did at some stage but have dropped them in favor of more productive training methods) ie Judo, BJJ etc., in many cases these styles have evolved with the sporting arena being among their highest priority.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing actually, but many pro Kata martial artists would argue that there are some techniques / methods found within kata which are purely self defense / survival techniques and are not easily transfered to the ring - due to how dangerous they are IE., elbow strikes and eye gouges etc., or that they are ineffectual in such arenas. There is therefore a risk that these oportunities could overlooked.

You could argue that again these techniques could be "broken out" of the kata and practiced in isolation, but I think in the perfect world there should be a balance of kata in you training to embed correct form along with partner work to re-enforce these techniques.

I think its also important to remember that when the likes of Itosu started to codify their karate (which arguably was the fore runner to the Karate most of us in the west refer to as "Traditional"), he did not see it as a comprehensive fighting system for use by one trained combatant against another in the fighting arena. He saw it more as method that could be practiced by the common man in order to defend himself against "Ruffians". Kata was seen as an essential vehicle in order to relay this. Karate is more than just a sport at the end of the day imo

Finally, not wishing to get all "zen" like, but I also look at kata training as a method of training the mind as much as the body.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Wa-No-Michi

[tallgeese]

I do see your point, Michi.

But those fighters in mma or judo or bjj are are very good at what they do, and despite the regulation placed on them by their competitive area would probibly fare pretty well in street conflict against an attacker. Even if a bjj'er only utilized the takedown aspect of his game to gain time to escape it would be well spent training time. An mma guy, realizing the need to adapt to his opponant will certainly have the tools to move, inflict damage, and stay mobile.

I'm not saying that any of these are or are designed to be pure in sd applications, I'm just saying that they do provide a good frame work. In part because they've adapted highly "live" training programs against resisting opponants.

Now, take that same fighter and spend some time doing those "non-sport" movments. Eye gouges and such. And give him some framework with which to support weapons defensed from. Now you've got a pretty competent ma-ist from a street presptive as well.

You can also look at sd systems built around similar "live" training principle, Krav and such to use a well known example. Again, sysems that don't utlize kata. They certainly havn't expanded or developed into sport application. Their biggest litmus test is how things work in a real enviorment.

Because of these things, I dont' think you can say that kata is the core of what makes karate (or martail arts) more combative. There are plenty of ways to train combativeness without relying on kata.

I'm not talking about breaking movments out of kata to use in isolation, sorry if I gave that impression, but utilizing movements of a combative nature in progressive training drills to make them accessable in high stress situatins. This includes their application (as best as humanly and gear allowed possible) against simulated attacks and during the course of sparring as well.

So, it's not just taking sruff out and using it. It's about identifying practical tools, no matter where they come from, and training them in a progressive set of drills that are as alive in nature as possible and incorporating them into an overall defensive stratagy for you to use. I don't think kata is necissary for this goal, that's all.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I kinda thought that this was the goal of this thread in the first place, and why I was reluctant to throw fuel on such a pointless fire but, by invitation I did any way so more fool me I guess.

[NightOwl]

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing actually, but many pro Kata martial artists would argue that there are some techniques / methods found within kata which are purely self defense / survival techniques and are not easily transfered to the ring - due to how dangerous they are IE., elbow strikes and eye gouges etc., or that they are ineffectual in such arenas. There is therefore a risk that these oportunities could overlooked.

Leg breaks, arm breaks, chokes, kicks to the leg (including the knee), elbow strikes, punches to the face, and soccer kicks to someone on the ground (in the old PRIDE rules) are all allowed in mma. Strikes to the groin and eye gouges were once allowed as well but I only can think of a couple examples of them being used (and the guy who used it lost). All it takes is a little more pressure to turn an arm bar into an arm break on the street (the most recent UFC fight for the troops if you look it up online had someone get their arm broken). I can choke someone and let go when they tap out, or hold onto it for another 6 seconds and choke them out of consciousness.

If you can't land a punch or kick on anyone during sparring, you wouldn't have much of a chance of landing an eye gouge or groin strike on a much harder to hit and low percentage target area. Ring fighting if nothing else teaches you timing- you can easily aim a punch for the throat (although this isn't as deadly as people make it out to be- but you are looking at a TKO if you get it right) instead of the head if you are fighting for your life, but you need to know the timing of a basic strike before trying for something more complicated.

I've heard people say that they could take on 'sport' fighter in a real fight because they can use deadly force but...so can the sport fighter! And the sport fighter can show that they can apply strikes, grabs, and attacks when someone doesn't want them to, as well as avoid attacks themselves, no matter what technique the attack may be. Kata in my opinion and experience doesn't prepare you for this.

Finally, not wishing to get all "zen" like, but I also look at kata training as a method of training the mind as much as the body.

I'm actually going to agree with you on this one. It isn't what I am looking for but kata and be a beautiful art form and form of physical meditation for many.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing actually, but many pro Kata martial artists would argue that there are some techniques / methods found within kata which are purely self defense / survival techniques and are not easily transfered to the ring - due to how dangerous they are IE., elbow strikes and eye gouges etc., or that they are ineffectual in such arenas. There is therefore a risk that these oportunities could overlooked.

Leg breaks, arm breaks, chokes, kicks to the leg (including the knee), elbow strikes, punches to the face, and soccer kicks to someone on the ground (in the old PRIDE rules) are all allowed in mma. Strikes to the groin and eye gouges were once allowed as well but I only can think of a couple examples of them being used (and the guy who used it lost). All it takes is a little more pressure to turn an arm bar into an arm break on the street (the most recent UFC fight for the troops if you look it up online had someone get their arm broken). I can choke someone and let go when they tap out, or hold onto it for another 6 seconds and choke them out of consciousness.

If you can't land a punch or kick on anyone during sparring, you wouldn't have much of a chance of landing an eye gouge or groin strike on a much harder to hit and low percentage target area. Ring fighting if nothing else teaches you timing- you can easily aim a punch for the throat (although this isn't as deadly as people make it out to be- but you are looking at a TKO if you get it right) instead of the head if you are fighting for your life, but you need to know the timing of a basic strike before trying for something more complicated.

I've heard people say that they could take on 'sport' fighter in a real fight because they can use deadly force but...so can the sport fighter! And the sport fighter can show that they can apply strikes, grabs, and attacks when someone doesn't want them to, as well as avoid attacks themselves, no matter what technique the attack may be. Kata in my opinion and experience doesn't prepare you for this.

Finally, not wishing to get all "zen" like, but I also look at kata training as a method of training the mind as much as the body.

I'm actually going to agree with you on this one. It isn't what I am looking for but kata and be a beautiful art form and form of physical meditation for many.

Ok, you have convinced me. I will give up traditional Wado tomorrow and enroll in my nearest MMA school.

Thank you for your guidance.

Blige I cant beleive I wasted 30 years but hey ho!

WNM.