Kata Thoughts

[DWx]

Bunkai is one of the things about kata that has always eluded me. The way I've always been taught forms, and the forms themselves, are so literal. A block is just a block. You have different types of blocks and practice a variety of them but essentially they all have the same purpose. The only thing to figure out is which one you want to use when attacked and that in itself is pretty simple as you just have to decide which tool you want to use and which direction you want to stop it from. It just seems a bit weird for me if someone takes a kata and tries to make the moves fit a grab or fit a takedown when IMO it would be far more beneficial to just go and practice the grab or takedown itself.

I probably take a really simplistic view of it all but personally I think when you try to pull all sorts of techniques out of the combos then you just make it difficult for yourself. To me forms are there for practice of perfect technique. You could just drill a kick over and over again on its own or in combination (and some people do work this way) or you can do forms. Forms are a skeleton or backbone to keep moves grouped together for different ranks to learn. IMO its easier to know what you have to learn if you have a form there to reference.

I do think there are benefits to them though. Physically they develop leg strength and balance through stances, stamina, breath control and good technique if done well. They are also an area that is easier to just go away and practice on your own (which is good for beginners as they have something to focus on). IMO forms also allow for a creative outlet where you can focus on making them look nice if you want.

[Wa-No-Michi]

This is why someone has to explain/demonstrate what's "hidden within"--or it's lost.

But you won't find the answer in a book.

WNM

[Wa-No-Michi]

I have 3.5 years and up to a striped blue belt in TKD plus some wing chun (although the kata weren't that important in the Kung fu class) so I've done my fair share of kata training to the point of almost doing entirely poomse and drill based classes.

With respect, 3.5 years is no time at all, and sort of puts you in my category no.1.

The vids you have posted are very nice, but its all about realising potential application through ongoing practice. Not watching what other people have figured out for themselves.

Also, you have to understand that kata has purpose beyond just the immediately apparent. For example Naihanchi kata is an introduction inner circular stances, seishan is the progression of inner circular stances as in it adds forward movement plus the on off of dynamic tension, Chinto is the convergence of inner circular stances with the technical opulence of Kushanku (and thus all of the pinan katas).

But as I say, you will not appreciate this from a book.

[Kuma]

Bunkai is one of the things about kata that has always eluded me. The way I've always been taught forms, and the forms themselves, are so literal. A block is just a block. You have different types of blocks and practice a variety of them but essentially they all have the same purpose. The only thing to figure out is which one you want to use when attacked and that in itself is pretty simple as you just have to decide which tool you want to use and which direction you want to stop it from. It just seems a bit weird for me if someone takes a kata and tries to make the moves fit a grab or fit a takedown when IMO it would be far more beneficial to just go and practice the grab or takedown itself.

One of the main reasons why some people are big into bunkai is due to history. When Anko Itosu brought karate to the Okinawan schools in the early 1900s, he changed a lot of the open hand techniques to a closed fist due to the supposed danger of some of those techniques. Not to mention since that time there might have been other things that have been overlooked. I honestly never used to care much, but now after training with an instructor who has some great bunkai ideas and reading the likes of Iain Abernethy and others, I've become a fan.

It's interesting to see something that you would never expect turn up in a karate kata. Case in point: at 40 seconds of this video of Pinan Sono San is where you turn and deliver a horizontal elbow strike with a hikite on the other hand and dropping into a kiba dachi.

Most would take it as turning to face an unseen enemy and delivering an elbow strike to their solar plexus. OK, I guess, not a bad one but it's not going to be too high percentage and it's probably not going to work as great as you think it might.

Look at some Judo videos though, and you see ippon seoinage right there.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

[NightOwl]

I have 3.5 years and up to a striped blue belt in TKD plus some wing chun (although the kata weren't that important in the Kung fu class) so I've done my fair share of kata training to the point of almost doing entirely poomse and drill based classes.

With respect, 3.5 years is no time at all, and sort of puts you in my category no.1.

The vids you have posted are very nice, but its all about realising potential application through ongoing practice. Not watching what other people have figured out for themselves.

Also, you have to understand that kata has purpose beyond just the immediately apparent. For example Naihanchi kata is an introduction inner circular stances, seishan is the progression of inner circular stances as in it adds forward movement plus the on off of dynamic tension, Chinto is the convergence of inner circular stances with the technical opulence of Kushanku (and thus all of the pinan katas).

But as I say, you will not appreciate this from a book.

I would disagree that 3 and a half years with 2-3 times a week training is not "Never having really trained in any serious Kata based ma before (or at least for long enough)" and thus having little no experience with kata and applications from kata. In fact if you go to a more 'modern' martial arts gym many people there started out in TMAs. However some feel that kata take a lifetime to master which in that case I can hardly claim to be an expert, but neither can anybody.

However I can say that I have had years of experience with training both kata and bunkai and I initially had a different opinion of them, although I never was a big kata fan when I could just learn the moves without going through the whole kata to get to them.

As for the videos I put them there for the reason that they were NOT always the best, especially when they tried to do grappling and some of the takedowns. The knife one could be very dangerous if tried in real life.

Again, if you look at kata historically (books by Diane Skoss are a good start) they aren't all that mysterious at all. They shouldn't be- if you have to take over 10 years to understand a kata then something is quite wrong. I can get a PHD neuroscience in 10 years, and that is a far more complicated field than karate. (can I understand everything about the brain? no- but I can be an expert on the most complicated part nature in less time than it takes to be a 'master' on a short series of physical moves)

Blocking, punching, sweeps, these are all things that are simple when drilled and applied. Suddenly in a context of a kata, they are unknowable and unattainable. They only become so when their meaning becomes lost and people have to find a meaning to them, especially in the last 25 years.

This is true with most martial arts over time, as when combat becomes less stressed art becomes more important. The Tokugawa era of japan at the height of classical martial arts saw this trend at times with many older samurai VERY critical of dojos that only practiced kata (and many times made up their own for aesthetic purposes). The whole concept of the bushido code and attaching a deep spiritual meaning to martial arts practice came about during peacetime, as the samurai felt their relevance was fading away and needing a deeper justification for their class (this has to do with the rise of mercantilism after the late 17th century and the constrictions of Confucianism on the samurai...a long story). My friend trained with a goju-ryu master in the 70's on mainland japan and I have heard lots of stories about how they trained- kata were there because kata was what you did. Then they drilled, practiced kumite, and otherwise did hard work.

With the above video the basic blocks and strikes in the kata became elaborate self defense moves, many of which would not be wise to actually try. However a student learning it wouldn't know that, they would think that they are learning 'karate' and should a situation arise instead of trying a simple knee strike might try to do a wrist grab takedown maneuver that their sensei thought up of over the weekend.

Kata are not mysteries wrapped in an enigma unless you make them out to be. If it has a purpose beyond the immediately apparent, then I need a quote from the originator of the system telling me what that is or Occam's razor ("entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem") dictates otherwise.

Edited December 27, 2008 by NightOwl

[joesteph]

(3) Bas Rutten. One of the most powerful strikers MMA has ever seen, he thinks kata is an excellent training tool (moreso for the breath control than anything but when a legend of the ring quotes that you need to stand up and take notice).

At http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/index.htm

it says:

While Bas prefers fighting he actually believes in kata (prearranged martial arts movements) which is unusual among most UFC fighters. He believes that it is very good for controlling your breathing. To go through 45 movements and have your last kick be as powerful is very difficult.

That site includes that his asthma started from when he was a child. I think it all depends on the individual. They help me as a lower belt for reasons I've mentioned, posted above, but I know that dan level hyungs would not be to my liking; instead, I'd prefer, as I'm already seeing bunkai "peeking out" in the hyungs I'm performing, or watching higher belts perform, to learn at least one bunkai per move/set of moves, and then string them together as a hyung.

Incidentally, my instructor's teacher was heavily into dance until she was twenty-seven, then took up karate. Rising up through the belt ranks, she told me she really enjoyed hyungs more than the fighting aspect; it's during her dan years that, while she continued learning hyungs, she became much more focused on the "wail away" facet.

[cross]

It's interesting to see something that you would never expect turn up in a karate kata. Case in point: at 40 seconds of this video of Pinan Sono San is where you turn and deliver a horizontal elbow strike with a hikite on the other hand and dropping into a kiba dachi.

Most would take it as turning to face an unseen enemy and delivering an elbow strike to their solar plexus. OK, I guess, not a bad one but it's not going to be too high percentage and it's probably not going to work as great as you think it might.

Look at some Judo videos though, and you see ippon seoinage right there.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm

Thats one of the things that doesnt make sense to me when it comes to bunkai. You learn the kata, and as you mention, one of the techniques looks kinda like a judo throw, but unless you are taught how to do the throw correctly, you are not going to be able perform it just because you have done a movement that is similar in a kata.

The way i see it, if you want to learn how to do that throw, go to a judo school and they will teach you how to perform it correctly, with a partner. Same thing if you want to learn grappling techniques, go to a bjj/wrestling school and learn how to perform the techniques straight up without having to march around doing moves in a kata that sortof resemble what your doing if you have a good imagination.

3) Bas Rutten. One of the most powerful strikers MMA has ever seen, he thinks kata is an excellent training tool (moreso for the breath control than anything but when a legend of the ring quotes that you need to stand up and take notice).

Bas Rutten saying he likes kata may be an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. I doubt you will ever see ufc fighters doing kata during their pre fight training, they have far more productive and benificial ways to spend their training time, and thats reflected in the routines they follow.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Blocking, punching, sweeps, these are all things that are simple when drilled and applied. Suddenly in a context of a kata, they are unknowable and unattainable. They only become so when their meaning becomes lost and people have to find a meaning to them, especially in the last 25 years.

In my view kata is not about blocking, punching, sweeping per se.

Thats the an option 1 way to look at things.

But of course, we are all entitled to our own points of view.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Thats one of the things that doesnt make sense to me when it comes to bunkai. You learn the kata, and as you mention, one of the techniques looks kinda like a judo throw, but unless you are taught how to do the throw correctly, you are not going to be able perform it just because you have done a movement that is similar in a kata.

The way i see it, if you want to learn how to do that throw, go to a judo school and they will teach you how to perform it correctly, with a partner. Same thing if you want to learn grappling techniques, go to a bjj/wrestling school and learn how to perform the techniques straight up without having to march around doing moves in a kata that sortof resemble what your doing if you have a good imagination.

I couldn't agree more. Karate is Karate at the end of the day.

[Kuma]

Thats one of the things that doesnt make sense to me when it comes to bunkai. You learn the kata, and as you mention, one of the techniques looks kinda like a judo throw, but unless you are taught how to do the throw correctly, you are not going to be able perform it just because you have done a movement that is similar in a kata.

The way i see it, if you want to learn how to do that throw, go to a judo school and they will teach you how to perform it correctly, with a partner. Same thing if you want to learn grappling techniques, go to a bjj/wrestling school and learn how to perform the techniques straight up without having to march around doing moves in a kata that sortof resemble what your doing if you have a good imagination.

Bas Rutten saying he likes kata may be an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. I doubt you will ever see ufc fighters doing kata during their pre fight training, they have far more productive and benificial ways to spend their training time, and thats reflected in the routines they follow.

Naturally you'd have to train it using an alive manner for it to be useful. Much like no boxer would simply do shadowboxing, you need to train what you do in a live manner to get good at it. That's why the renewed interest in karate bunkai using Straight Blast Gym training (progressive resistance and aliveness drills) is awesome to me. Iain Abernethy is probably the most well-known example, but there are others.

I'm fortunate with my training though. Our organization for Kyokushin allows throws, sweeps, and limited groundfighting so we get to train in them. I'm also fortunate that not only is Sensei Manny of my dojo a sandan in Kyokushin but also a godan in Judo. Because of his judo background he gets to see a lot of things others wouldn't. To me that's why one needs to cross-train if they want to see more in their art.

Of course. Won't argue with you on that. I just think that when a man like that gives advice, it's worthwhile to take note. I'm pretty sure Lyoto Machida does his kata as well, but as you said, it's one part of the whole package. A fighter who does only bagwork has just as much of a chance as winning as one who only does kata. It's only one part of the entire deal.