Kata Thoughts

[tori]

I guess I am really surprised at everyone's answers (and intrigued too). I love kata. As a kyu rank, I did them because I was required for rank advancement. As a Black Belt, I find the more I practice a kata, the more it opens me to endless possibilities of techniques.

I for years have had a "focus" problem. One of those ADD type people. Kata is the one thing that focuses me and my mind. I can concentrate on correct movements, proper stances, power, basic and advanced techniques that may be hidden in the kata. When doing kata, my mind doesn't stray anywhere else. My mind stays controlled. I don't feel like it is flipping like channel surfing.

Bunkai is individual. Just because my instructor may tell me his bunkai for a technique is ... doesn't mean that I see the same bunkai. I love exploring the bunkai to kata.

I have learned alot about my style through kata, but that's me. I am not arguing that it is essential in all Martial Arts training, but it is essential in my own personal training.

[joesteph]

I don't know if you've ever thought of taking up a second martial art, Tori, but if you ever have the inclination, you sound like someone perfect for Taiji. It's movements are slow, but you concentrate more on doing them with a goal of perfection.

There are many martial arts applications in Taiji. Everything is hidden. Everything is to be revealed. Maybe you've got an "analytical mind" and that's what causes you to enjoy finding bunkai in kata.

[bushido_man96]

Do ya'll think think that the belt-rank system perpetuates the continued introduction of longer and more complex forms as each rank requires something to set it apart from the ranks that come before?

To an extent. I'm not sure that the rank system causes forms in all systems to become longer and more complex, but it does in some. When the ATA created their system of forms, they did so with the intention of each form being longer, and more complex, and to help develop more advanced techniques as the practitioner went along in rank. Not that this is bad or good; at least their ideals are cleary defined.

I do think that forms tend to become attached to rank, and therefore curriculum. I think that most styles have at least one form per rank that they push the students through. Unfortunately, it is this way in my school. The form you do is representative of your rank, and to me, it seems like that is about it.

[bushido_man96]

This brings up a question that has been asked at another time in the forums, Why do many end their studies at shodan? Could a contributory reason be that the individual who has already spent so much time with forms now must spend so much more time with them, that ending studies at this "high point" seems the logical conclusion?

I think that there are a few contributing factors to this. The first is that many see the achievement of black belt as "the" goal. Part of this is the fault of instructors not showing good reasons to continue to stay involved (or by not providing a curriculum that sets them apart from the colored belts), and part of this is the fault of the student; the idea that there isn't anything more to achieve.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Unlike Tori, I am not surprised by most of the answers posted so far, but would have like to have seen more of the "trad" guys voice their opinion. (If there are many trad guys left that is)

It will be no surprise to most of you that I consider the practice of Kata a key and vital component part to learning Wado-ryu. Please note it is not the the only part, but together with basics, pair work and free fighting it is the sum of the parts that makes the whole thing tick.

As far as bunkai is concerned, this is such a well trodden path I feel reluctant to go down it again, but for the sake of the thread I guess we must.

Bunkai is a process, not a list of techniques / applications or possibilities. If you do not practice kata you can not, and will not understand this process. You may be able to understand the value of applications explained in isolation and indeed put them to good use but this does not constitute Bunkai.

Its a bit like only reading the last page of every book in order to get to the conclusion. Yes you will get there a lot quicker, but what would have missed?

Personally I think that kata is far more than a moving history book, a repository of techniques or just a way to embed good muscle memory. Of course it is all of this, but its a lot more also. Its a constant source of reference that you take with you through your karate career, your views about them will change as your karate evolves and so therefore they grow with you as part of the "Shu-ha-ri" of things.

A beginner will learn Pinan Shodan, in order to start to learn goods stances and co-ordinate techniques with multi directional movement. A purple belt (Intermediate grade) may practice the same kata in order to develop and improve upon the principle of "double moment" (Hips go one way as arms go another), a dan grade may practice the kata in order to allow him/her to deeper understanding and be prepared other more advanced katas / or Kuzushi (the application of techniques against a (partner).

So, a bit like application, katas should not be trained in isolation, they are all small parts of the bigger jigsaw.

This is why you should never learn one kata (for a grading or competition) and then move on to another, as if to discard the one you have learned. You should constantly revisit all of the katas you have learned in order to better understand them improve upon them. Its constant.

Its also why, in most good Karate schools, as you progress through your gradings from 8th kyu to 3rd dan etc., you will probably do each kata at least three or four times as it shows that candidates are constantly practicing all Katas not just the ones they need for their relevant grading.

Finally, anyone who has spent any time at all studying a traditional Japanese MA will know that learning how to move correctly is the key to success. It takes far longer to embed good movement than it does to learn individual techniques, and without kata - from a karate perspective, you would struggle. imo

If Katas not your bag then fine, there is more than one way to skin a cat, but they work for me, my students and I love em.

Merry xmas

Edited December 26, 2008 by Wa-No-Michi

[NightOwl]

I do think that forms tend to become attached to rank, and therefore curriculum. I think that most styles have at least one form per rank that they push the students through. Unfortunately, it is this way in my school. The form you do is representative of your rank, and to me, it seems like that is about it.

I think this ties back with the original purpose of kata. You learned a new kata at a higher rank because that is when you were supposed to learn those new moves (again, going off off old JMAs as a reference).

As for bunkai, if you don't know the purpose of the application anymore definitively, I think bunkai can be tricky ground. I've seen bunkai that make sense, but also some really terrible stuff as well (finding hidden grappling is starting to become a trend with the popularity of BJJ). That is why kata really isn't as good as writing what you want to do down on paper as techniques can be lost and actions exaggerated to the point of losing their original meaning.

[Wa-No-Michi]

As for bunkai, if you don't know the purpose of the application anymore definitively, I think bunkai can be tricky ground. I've seen bunkai that make sense, but also some really terrible stuff as well (finding hidden grappling is starting to become a trend with the popularity of BJJ). That is why kata really isn't as good as writing what you want to do down on paper as techniques can be lost and actions exaggerated to the point of losing their original meaning.

Well this is this problem and goes a long way to explaining how / why kata is so incorrectly reprented today.

In the most part, this view is propagated by people who have: -

1. Never really trained in any serious Kata based ma before (or at least for long enough).

2. Not had a Instructor who is knowledgeable and experienced enough in order to be able explain the value of Kata and see it as a performance to look nice in competitions.

3. Worst of all, and sadly most common - combination of 1 and 2.

Merry Xmas.

[NightOwl]

I have 3.5 years and up to a striped blue belt in TKD plus some wing chun (although the kata weren't that important in the Kung fu class) so I've done my fair share of kata training to the point of almost doing entirely poomse and drill based classes. I've also studied martial arts with little to no kata training such as doing mma training over a summer to modern grappling based arts. Each experience has been different and taught me something new about martial arts, however from my experiences as well as research on the topic I have come to form my opinion on kata and, somewhat as an extension, bunkai.

Again I have no problem with forms per se , and I actually like to see them in action sometimes to get a feel of a style. However it is my opinion that forms are not for training martial abilities, but rather an old method of preserving a tradition and/or a physical artform in itself. For the former if you know what the techniques are then great- you can drill them. If not and the meaning is vauge you can run into people making up techniques for all sorts of things that the bunkai might or might not mean or are actually part of the system or not.

As an example, here is the legendary Gichin Funakoshi doing Tekki Shodan: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9LWIw&feature=related

Now here are the bunkai for Tekki Shodan:

This is a mostly striking based variation: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=J0ojIV0q4X4

This one has a TON of grappling:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=p4uxSFh6Zgw&feature=related

This one has a guy pulling what (I assume is suppose to be) an uchi mata out of Tekki Shodan:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9nvDFpG13Qw&feature=related

This is mostly stiking based with multiple attackers:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=V5mnhmlS174

This guy has bunaki from Tekki shodan for defending against a single leg takedown and a knife:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=txP8vWt3xQE

To me personally Tekki shodan looks like some basic strikes and footwork set in a form. However that is the problem IMO- if it wasn't passed down then it could mean anything.

[joesteph]

As an example, here is the legendary Gichin Funakoshi doing Tekki Shodan: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=YNrslr9LWIw&feature=related

I watched and recognized moves from when I've observed higher belts practicing a certain hyung in my Korean art, Soo Bahk Do.

Now here are the bunkai for Tekki Shodan:

This is a mostly striking based variation: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=J0ojIV0q4X4

This one has a TON of grappling:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=p4uxSFh6Zgw&feature=related

. . .

This guy has bunaki from Tekki shodan for defending against a single leg takedown and a knife:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=txP8vWt3xQE

The above are the ones I bookmarked.

- The instructor in the first of these had a silent audience when going slowly and stopping at a certain point with his partner, then the noise level rose as they went at it at greater speed and to bunkai conclusion.

- This one was easier for me to understand the bunkai applications.

- When the instructor and partner were in street clothes, it was more evident to me how you've got to move--and move fast--than I believe if they were in uniform.

To me personally Tekki shodan looks like some basic strikes and footwork set in a form. However that is the problem IMO- if it wasn't passed down then it could mean anything.

Never claiming to have been a martial arts prodigy, I have to admit that watching familiar moves, as in the Gichin Funakoshi video, I'd likely have never arrived at the multi-faceted bunkai I saw in the videos.

I wonder if the higher belts I watch in the dojang who are performing these same moves as they practice the hyung that contains them know what the applications are? The system is likely to have students learn all the moves first, then go back and gradually learn what they're for, over a length of time. It's not that the student learns individual moves, with, say, one bunkai application for each move, and then they're interwoven as a kata/hyung.

This is why someone has to explain/demonstrate what's "hidden within"--or it's lost.

Thanks, Night Owl.

[Kuma]

If you don't like kata then probably karate isn't for you. I can respect that, as there are many martial arts out there that I am not into. Hence why I train in what I train.

I used to box and did a few kickboxing and NHB matches when I was stationed on Okinawa because at the time I thought it was awesome. I was training in a different style of karate at the time and though I did my kata it wasn't as fun to me as the other parts. Here, about 8 years later, kata is now a pretty important part of my training. It took me a while to realize that if I train in karate I have to do kata. If I'm devoting my life to karate-do I need to do it all.

Naturally this took a while for me to accept. It wasn't until I read some good advice about how if you want to excel in what you do you need to look at those who excelled before you and mimic what they did. Take for example three of the individuals who I looked at. I looked at many but these three stick out in my mind:

(1) Sosai Oyama naturally. He was a big believer in kata and trained many of the old champs in lots of kata.

(2) Morio Higaonna. A powerful goju ryu karateka and brilliant teacher who trains up to 3 hours of kata day, half of his 6 hour daily training routine which doesn't include teaching. Not bad for a guy in his 70s. I still enjoy his definition that kata is like a letter in the alphabet, whereas kumite is your handwriting.

(3) Bas Rutten. One of the most powerful strikers MMA has ever seen, he thinks kata is an excellent training tool (moreso for the breath control than anything but when a legend of the ring quotes that you need to stand up and take notice).

So to me, if some of the individuals I look to for inspiration in karate see kata as important, then heck yeah I'm going to do it. I actually really enjoy it now. To me it's just as fun as working the heavy bag, sparring with a partner, or doing self defense drills.

If kata isn't your thing but you love karate, you'll have to learn to at least tolerate it. If you're so-so on the subject, then it might be wiser to find something you'll enjoy more.

EDIT: I actually just spent the majority of 2008 training with a huge emphasis on Sanchin kata, optimally training it 3x a day. The huge increase in my skill level outside of the kata was noticeable and some of it I attribute to my Sanchin kata studies.