Kata Thoughts

[tallgeese]

A couple of other threads that have been running prompted me to ask what everyones position on kata was. Do you do them as a school? What are there relivance to your practice of the ma's in general? Is there a strict set to your school, or have you imported? Lastly, what are your feelings on them if it's not you running class?

Personally, I don't use them.

I think that most of the authentic bunkai of the old forms can be translated successfully into more modern teaching models, including two man drills and the like. This has the benifit of placing it into context immedialtly without translation.

Proper movment and posture can be taught in more dynamic and therefore, realistic formats. Discliplie is instilled thru the rigors of class.

Because of all this, I don't see the need for kata/forms. They were probibly an excellent sourse of training at the time of their creation but times change and innovations in teaching and culture move on. Now, most of the jobs they served can be done in others ways, nor is the secrecy that they once established for the pratitioner needed.

There is a huge time commetment with them. First, you teach a set of movements. Then, you have to go back and interperate bunaki. Then, you ahve to practice those bunaki to use in sd setttings. It's much quicker to simply cut to the "practice the bunkai" stage. More training time for the more pertanat skills.

Just my opinoins. I know everyone won't agree, but I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts on them.

[cross]

I agree with everything you have said tallgeese.

I used to train in traditional karate and to be honest, the time spent practicing kata could have been much better put to use doing far more productive things.

[joesteph]

Kata/hyungs prove to be helpful to me as a lower belt. They help with my stance, balance, and coordination, and I find them most helpful when I can go by my own count, not with a group. It's true that I've profited when working as a group member, but that tends to be if we're going at a more moderate speed. The flaw I find in group work is that if one member is going faster, then others feel an obligation to pick up speed.

What's also good for me about hyungs is that I can perform combinations of moves without trying to remember what the Korean terms are.

I like doing sparring techniques/combos ("bunkai") with a partner in that it's more social. (Perhaps an odd thing to say, because it's supposed to be a martial arts experience?) I understand that bunkai is taken from kata/hyungs, so, at least at my belt level, I'm practicing basic movements in a flowing form that will be tapped into later on.

The odd thing here is that although I find hyungs helpful to me, I get bored watching them.

[joesteph]

Iain Abernethy's web site at http://www.iainabernethy.com has a free ebook by Michael Rosenbaum available. It's title is "Comprehensive Karate: From Beginner to Black Belt," and chapters 7 and 8 specifically deal with kata.

It's downloadable w/o cost at:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/Comprehensive_Karate_Michael_Rosenbaum.asp

These chapters contain text, photos, and even a special diagram regarding kata.

[bushido_man96]

Do you do them as a school?

We do. One per belt level, required for testing.

What are there relivance to your practice of the ma's in general?

In our school, their relevance is pretty much to a testing requirment. Each form tends to get a bit tougher to do, and so there is an increase in skill level as one goes up in rank. Supposedly.

Is there a strict set to your school, or have you imported?

We have a strict set, with one form being the creation of our GM, and the rest of the forms are the ITF set, but we don't do all 24 ITF forms.

Lastly, what are your feelings on them if it's not you running class?

My feeling on forms is that we could do more with them. I don't mind doing forms; I always enjoyed forms competitions. I like to do them in class, too. However, I think that we could do more with them. Our style doesn't do any forms applications (Hae Sul), but I have picked up a book that does show applications for the forms set that we do. I would like to delve into it some in class, or add it into an advanced class setting, so the black belts have something different to motivate them.

Those answer your original questions. More to come!

[NightOwl]

Personally I am very much against kata. Why practice a kata when you can practice the moves separately and more efficiently? Kata does build a muscle memory of sorts- but for the kata, not as you would use it in my opinion.

Kata can be nice to look at and I know some people like them, but for me I've found them to take up training time as opposed to two person drills, sparring, and even cardio. All of those have been shown in my opinion to help understand techniques as you actually use them and improve your abilities much more effectively.

Actually most styles gain kata with time (look at traditional chen vs yang taichi) . The reason being is that kata have a point- preserving a moveset in a pattern- that is why many older kata can be on the short side. They are meant to show moves and that is it. However as time goes on on and people get less interested in combat, forms become a pursuit in themselves. Thus you move from basic function to atheistically pleasing routines. This isn't new- during the Edo period in Japan many samurai complained that the martial arts had started to become a form of dance, and I have even read similar complaints about military kungfu training in ancient china.

However even if you have a kata just for preserving a technique, we no longer live in an age where you can't write anything down or only record them on expensive to produce scrolls as in Japan. Besides, such kata are only good when someone actually knows what they represent and how to use them.

Applications and sparring have always traditionally been used for learning how to actually apply moves, and thus with no longer any need for preserving techniques in kata I see little need for them. If you want to practice kata I totally respect that- however sometimes an adherence to 'tradition' and a huge emphasis placed on them for grading means that I have less time to train.

Wushu is all about the forms (and it looks amazing and requires a ton of work!), however it doesn't try and be a martial art, but a martially inspired sport. On the other hand, I feel that many train like a Wushu practitioner would, but have a completely different goal in mind.

[joesteph]

Actually most styles gain kata with time (look at traditional chen vs yang taichi) . The reason being is that kata have a point- preserving a moveset in a pattern- that is why many older kata can be on the short side. They are meant to show moves and that is it. However as time goes on on and people get less interested in combat, forms become a pursuit in themselves. Thus you move from basic function to atheistically pleasing routines.

You've got some interesting insights into kata here, Night Owl. The reference to "show moves and that is it" makes me think of my posting that, as a lower belt, it's helpful. I've wondered if there should be a point in which kata/hyungs are no longer required, say after reaching first dan.

I've watched dan members practicing for promotion in my school; from what I've observed, and from what my instructor has told me, these are quite long. You've referred to "forms becom[ing] a pursuit in themselves." I wonder if the highest dans see themselves as perpetuating the "artistic" in the "art," as less concern about actual combat ability is present, but a weaving of the combat applications becomes a goal.

It would be interesting if a schism occurred in a martial art, with the breakaways mining all the bunkai they possibly can from the forms and using these for training and dan requirements, while those who remain with the original retain the forms for dan requirements, and reveal the bunkai traditionally, depending on dan level.

[tallgeese]

I think that you are already seeing that in some areas, joe. At least in my little microcosom of the world it's occuring. It will probibly become more prevalent.

To no one's suprise, I have no problems with this. I think, however, that great care needs to be taken when stripping bunkai to use. Some of the interprations I've seen have been down right silly and possibly sucidial if used in a conflict. A good system is based on good principles first, and then good movements. If you're stripping out movements that are less than effective in nature then one would miss the whole point of trying to make the process more efficient.

That's the warining I would give people using this method. It's common sense really, but I've seen odder things happen.

[KarateEd]

My school still emphasizes katas/hyungs. I find them useful for training by myself, just to keep the memory of various techniques fresh in my mind. Also, like joesteph, I see their merits in developing newer students' stances and coordination without the stress of facing or working with another student. However, tallgeese, I can see how a burdensome regimen of katas/hyungs can sap precious training time that could be better spent focusing on real world, shorter duration sd conflicts.

Do ya'll think think that the belt-rank system perpetuates the continued introduction of longer and more complex forms as each rank requires something to set it apart from the ranks that come before?

[joesteph]

Do ya'll think think that the belt-rank system perpetuates the continued introduction of longer and more complex forms as each rank requires something to set it apart from the ranks that come before?

I'm not a dan member, but my instructor is a fourth dan. She's been on a judging panel (I believe it's three judges) for those who seek promotion to dan or higher dan ranking, and she has told me that these forms do become quite long, quite involved, with advancement.

This brings up a question that has been asked at another time in the forums, Why do many end their studies at shodan? Could a contributory reason be that the individual who has already spent so much time with forms now must spend so much more time with them, that ending studies at this "high point" seems the logical conclusion?