Rank and its Meaning

[Truestar]

Now, under just about any other circumstance, we all say that "rank is nothing, proof is on the floor," and "black belt is just the beginning." So, with this in mind, then a black belt rank should be demonstrable by their actions on the floor and with others, whether they were a belt or not.

A 'new can of worms' was opened in another thread.

Many times a person holds a rank that lets face it: they probably don't deserve. Now, we all might want to think, "It's not in our right to judge" but it is.

Because of the way society has evolved the term 'black belt' is often considered as a joke. I've experienced this myself in High School, regardless of when I got my Dan rank.

Should rank mean a lot more than it does today? Should schools start grading like schools used to? If they graded a bit tougher would the term 'black belt' start meaning something again? If there was an understood and universally accepted age limitation for 1st Dan would rank start meaning something?

[JohnC]

To have universal meaning requires standardization (one of the reasons folks have moved to certifications to establish knowledgebase in contrast to degrees). As standardization probably isn't ever going to happen, then having a common meaning for what "black belt" means won't either.

In addition, with a lot of folks now studying many arts over their time instead of one, a person can be a high Dan in one and a low Kyu in another. Which rank is correct?

Lastly there is always the difference between someone who has / did earn a rank there / then but really isn't very good here / now, for whatever reason. Should keeping their rank require recurrent certification?

Bottom line, I gave up a long long time ago paying attention to what belt someone wears. As Sensei8 put it, the proof's on the floor.

[sensei8]

What's in one form of the Martial Arts isn't the same in another. This is true of "Black Belt" in that the evolution happened and it could've been a bueatiful thing to behold. Instead, it became an ugly thing to behold.

Why? Because bad is opposite of good and in the Yin/Yang of rank, this had to have happened in its many forms. It's sad, but it's true!

Often, what's a particular rank in style 'A' isn't the same or even close in style 'B' and each style is quick to state that very thing. The unity of the Martial Arts is no closer to being realized because of the many differences from 'A' to 'B' and this isn't Bushido.

Because of the way society has evolved the term 'black belt' is often considered as a joke.

This is true and was to be expected because of "Man's" involvement. History shows all of this to be true, whether we accept it to be so, is up to the individual. I can be wrong in a thousand different ways, yet, I'm still wrong nonetheless.

Should rank mean a lot more than it does today?

It should! Yet, it (rank) is nothing without knowledge. Rank isn't the end all of all things in the Martial Arts. Rank has it's role and it should be kept in it's proper context/content so that Rank isn't seen as the ultimate goal, because it's not! Expressing oneself honestly through the Martial Arts is the journey that one should be seeking, not Rank. Rank is over-emphasised and I wish that rank didn't exist, especially in its present form.

I hold a high Dan rank, but, I know that it's not the rank that defines me. No! I define it through my actions and therefore, I'm complete in my totality! When I say "Proof is on the floor" I mean exactly that. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Either you can or you can't, hence, rank is a ornament, for it's not what rank can or can't do, and rank can't do anything for the fact of the matter; it's what the Martial Artist can or can't do. Step it up or step off the floor!

Should schools start grading like schools used to?

And how was that? Rank shouldn't be the emphasis of any syllabus within any style of the Martial Arts. Rank has its place and rank doesn't belong anywhere other than around ones waist. For schools to grade with the goal being Rank, then I say that this school has missed the mark by miles. The totality of the Martial Artist should be measured by not what's around the midriff, but, what's the content/context of ones techniques, like the three K's (Kihon, Kata, Kumite) of Karate as well as ones character. Rank doesn't hit, but, the Martial Artist does.

If they graded a bit tougher would the term 'black belt' start meaning something again?

Yes! If they graded tougher! Not a bit, but alot! Rank shouldn't take forever, yet, it is a lifelong journey of dedication. In this, rank should take as long as it takes because a rushed flower is a wilted and deformed flower; hence a dead flower! Each style of the Martial Arts is responsible to itself, yet, it should be responsible to the code of Bushido; what one does effects everyone at one time or another.

If there was an understood and universally accepted age limitation for 1st Dan would rank start meaning something?

This, imho, is up to the individual to decide. Universally understanding takes unity first and foremost. The element of unity is missing in the Martial Arts; therefore, the Martial Arts can be stale, tasteless, at best and at times. Again, this arguement is best left for each Federation/Association to answer within itself and its student body per it's own By-Laws. In order for rank to start to mean something will require more than acceptable age for 1st Dan. It will require that Rank ISN'T placed on a pedestal in any shape, way, and/or form.

I do understand what you're question above is aiming at, yet, my complete answer would violate the User Guidelines of this forum. Therefore, I reserve to leave this answer to myself. Let me just say, this phenomenon you speak of in this question above is here to stay, as unfortunate as it is, and we must learn to remain true to our cause and stay true to the code of Bushido within our own Martial Arts.

This very question that you ask in the opening post of this thread will remain a question for all of time. In that, arguements on both sides of the fence will be debated on for as long as the Martial Arts is around. We, I, can only hope the best for all of the Martial Arts as well as each Martial Artist.

Edited December 22, 2008 by sensei8

[Traymond]

If we were to start teaching like they did traditionally we would have no students.

But you can still make the rank mean something.

Like in KI kajukenpo, they wont reward you a belt above blue if you cannot defeat three lower belts per rank in a kumite.

Their is no brick breaking or any breaking required in Ki Kajukenpo, but mentally they prepare you to take on shodan.

But alot of testing for shodan and up are under an hour...thats just not long enough. In TKD my testing alone was 3 and a half hours, plus an hour of warm ups.

In my Mixed Karate Style, testing was 5 hours total, for three people.

And modern black belts dont have the attitude of black belts anymore, they think they have a black belt , they can kick anyone's rear end, it doesnt work that way. Or they go and buy all this gear that SCREAMS! Black belt. Wallets, key chaines, dog leashes, unimportant stuff.

[Montana]

Should schools start grading like schools used to? If they graded a bit tougher would the term 'black belt' start meaning something again? If there was an understood and universally accepted age limitation for 1st Dan would rank start meaning something?

Not all martial arts schools now days are what I call "shake and bake" black belt factories...although I personally think the majority of them lean that way. Some dojo/sensei actually *gasp* make a student earn a black belt.

I've judged and ref'd open style tournaments since 1983, and my personal opinion of the quality of the competing black belts today is...well...poor to terrible compared to when I started judging/reffing. We had a 8 year old 3rd Dan BB at one tournament that was simple a joke. Yet his sensei and parents walked about nearly throwing roses in his path as he strutted around the tournament. I was throughly happy when a 9 year old blue belt girl beat him in sparring..quite easily too!

For me, I believe a black belt should have the knowledge, skills and abilities to be able to teach a class on their own, without supervision, on literally everything they have learned up to that point.

[Ranpu]

heres a saying I seen somewhere "a Black Belt is just a White Belt that never gave up"

[tallgeese]

I think John is correct, there will never be a stadardization of what a black belt means. Nor really, do I think, there should be.

Not only does each art empahsise different standards, but from school to school these standards differ a bit. What some arts consider important (an example might mbe kata) others find no use for. Some people consider the ability to defend ones self at a high level key, while others would insist on the cultivation of self and such as well. No one's wrong. It's just a matter of where we each place importance.

We will all have our opinions on what a bb should be capable of, that's fine. The better question is are you promoting based on that. Can your bb pass your litimis test. To heck with what anyone else thinks.

By the way, I like the statement made ealier, that it shows on the floor. Couldn't agree more.

[Traymond]

I agree with tallgeese, its all about where out importance is placed, and also, what we hold key.

But what we must realize is, that no matter what our art thinks is important. they might love and worship kata, you may want to be come a master sparring competitor, go ahead, do both, just push your self hard, and I think that thats what really makes a black belt.

[bushido_man96]

My question is, how much different was it in the old days than it is now? I think people would still show up; I don't see any reason to smack people around with sticks in class, if that is what you might be referring to.

However, there isn't any reason that MA shouldn't be a physical challenge. Maybe someone can't kick high, but that doesn't mean that they can't kick well. I think what is key is finding what your bread and butter is, and doing what you can with it.

As far as how long a black belt testing should last, or what it should consist of, I am not too concerned about. After all, you earn your belt in the hours of class time you put in. I think that testing is to put someone in a stressful position, and then watching them perform.

I think what our idea of making good black belts boils down to is that when you have a group of 8 orange belts in your class, that you don't think that they all have to test for yellow belt at the same time. If one needs more work, tell them they need more work, and hold them back. If they don't appreciate your actions, then they aren't there for the right reasons (like sensei8 mentioned...rank should merely indicate a level of knowledge and skill).

Should all black belts be knockdown tournament champs? No. Should all black belts be kata grand champs? No. Should a black belt be easy to decipher from a crowd of colored belts, when you don't see any belts on them? I think so. How do we get there? Like Sensei Pat Nakata says: with hard work.

[Tiger1962]

Should rank mean a lot more than it does today? Should schools start grading like schools used to? If they graded a bit tougher would the term 'black belt' start meaning something again? If there was an understood and universally accepted age limitation for 1st Dan would rank start meaning something?

I do think schools should be tough in grading. Rank means something to me and if I didn't live up to or know what I'm supposed to for my level / rank, I'd be extremely embarrassed. Now, it might not mean anything or as much to someone else, and that is their prerogative.